Coup de grace

[Gold Roger]

The rules seem fair to me, when used in combat, where it might be hard to quickly dispose of a helpless target. Outside of combat, there's usually no need for cdg rules. There helpless people are dead meat, if the PC's want them to be.

 

[Aaron]

The rules seem fair to me, when used in combat, where it might be hard to quickly dispose of a helpless target. Outside of combat, there's usually no need for cdg rules. There helpless people are dead meat, if the PC's want them to be.

The problem here is that paralized or sleeping or tied up creatures are not unconscious, and then you can't CdG them.

In fact you can execute a CdG in combat, but only on unconscious creatures.

So, a good question is: why can you CdG a prone, unconscious creature, but you can't CdG a prone, paralized one?

Not to mention that outside of combat even PCs can be helpless, so the problem rises even in those situations.

 

[Mattachine]

The DM gets to use common sense to decide on helpless.

I like that.

 

[triqui]

double post..

 

[triqui]

Or to "pay for make up your rules".

The rules of football /soccer are made by the FIFA. The referee is the one who adjudicate them in the field. It's not the same.

Well, the rules state that paralized creatures are not entitled to be CdGraced (is this a word?).

Which rules? 5e? It clearly describes helpless being "cdgraceable". Some paralized creatures might be helpless. Some others might not. Charles xavier can levitate, probe your mind, and use psionic blasts while paralized, so getting the "paralized" condition does not mean he is "helpless". On the other hand, Wolverine would be helpless if paralized.

The executioner in your example is quite borderline, since it proposes a very limited and situational scenario, which is irrelevant for the 99,9999% % of adventures.

The evil guy taking a hostage, using it for cover against the PC, holding a dagger against his throat is not. In 5e, where "helpless" is not a set condition that is hardcoded in the rules, but a description, the DM can easily say that the hostage is helpless, and thus, if the villain slits his throat, the hostage is coup-de-graced. In other editions, he attacks him with the dagger, for regular damage, and depending on the edition, maybe a minus to attack (because they are both considered grappling)

Not to mention that yes, a PC can't be CdGraced (again!) only because someone armed with a axe is trying to chop his head off and the PC is kneeling.
Welcome to D&D.

No. But he can't be coupdegraced if he is executed. Hence the brilliance of the 5e: the DM does not declare helpless the kneeling PC who has just kneeled to fire his crossbow, but will declare helpless the kneeling PC with his head in the stump while the executioner tries to behead them. In the same way, when someone grappling someone else tries to stab him, that's not a coup de grace, but when someone is holding a hostage with a dagger in his neck, it is. Just because we use a human being common sense adjudicating on the fly, instead of some obscure algorithm that was not written to cover all the situations, but tries to.

Isn't it wonderful? What a great edition it's going to be.

 

[Aaron]

The rules of football /soccer are made by the FIFA. The referee is the one who adjudicate them in the field. It's not the same.

Which rules are you talking about?

We have no rules regarding the "helpless" condition.

The referee can't make up rules on the fly. In fact, he can't make up rules at all.

Which rules? 5e? It clearly describes helpless being "cdgraceable".

Where?

The rules state that you can CdG unconscious creatures, that, in fact, are helpless.
Read them again.

But it does not state that you can CdG helpless creatures.
As stated before, an unconscious character is helpless, but not all helpless characters are unconscious.

Some paralized creatures might be helpless. Some others might not. Charles xavier can levitate, probe your mind, and use psionic blasts while paralized, so getting the "paralized" condition does not mean he is "helpless". On the other hand, Wolverine would be helpless if paralized.

The rules say otherwise.
Nowhere they state that a paralized creatures is helpless, and even if they did, you cannot CdG a non-unconscious target.
Being paralized doesn't equate to being unconscious.

In 5e, where "helpless" is not a set condition that is hardcoded in the rules, but a description, the DM can easily say that the hostage is helpless, and thus, if the villain slits his throat, the hostage is coup-de-graced.
In other editions, he attacks him with the dagger, for regular damage, and depending on the edition, maybe a minus to attack (because they are both considered grappling)

So the DM can easily overcome any defense the PC could have simply stating that they are not grappled, they are helpless.

Brilliant.

No. But he can't be coupdegraced if he is executed.

If he is executed he was helpless. Cause -> effect.

By stating that someone is helpless only to make him executed is postponing the cause after the desired effect.

In fact, with rules as these the PCs can never know before what could make them helpless, and what risks they could take.

Quite annoying and uninteresting.

In the same way, when someone grappling someone else tries to stab him, that's not a coup de grace, but when someone is holding a hostage with a dagger in his neck, it is

How, ruleswise, can you declare that you are holding your foe hostage with a dagger in his neck?

What checks/actions should you use?

The DM gets to use common sense to decide on helpless.

Let's try some common sense.

Would you declare a paralized creature helpless?

 

[Riley]

I like it: The two-step coup-de-grace may prevent a few player character deaths, as my monsters will rarely feel the need to coup-de-grace twice.

 

[triqui]

The referee can't make up rules on the fly. In fact, he can't make up rules at all.

They can adjudicate the rules. Toucing the ball with the hand intentionally is a fault. "intention" is adjudicated by the referee. The FIFA rules do not declare which actions are intentional, that's the referee's job.

The 5e rules describe coup degrace for helpless. It does not say what creatures are helpless and which ones are not, that's the DM's job.

So the DM can easily overcome any defense the PC could have simply stating that they are not grappled, they are helpless.

Brilliant.

I agree it's brilliant. I'm happy to see you like it as much as me

If he is executed he was helpless. Cause -> effect.

By stating that someone is helpless only to make him executed is postponing the cause after the desired effect.

Maybe it's a language issue, English is not my first one. I'll try to explain myself:

If your character is put in the gallows, prepared for an execution, then he is helpless. Regardless of him being awake, mobile, and untied.

Which rule allow for it? DM call.

How, ruleswise, can you declare that you are holding your foe hostage with a dagger in his neck?[

What checks/actions should you use?

Depending on the situation. If it's a pre-combat, just description:

"The Baron takes the princess as a hostage and put his dagger in her neck".

If it is during combat, a grapple against a defenseless princess will sufice. A defenseless princess is a princess who is declared defenseless by the DM. Joan of Arc wouldn't be defenseless, even if naked and barehanded, Sansa (from Game of thrones) would be, even if she were holding a Halberd.

Let's try some common sense.

Would you declare a paralized creature helpless?

Depending on the situation. Charles Xavier is not helpless, even if paralized. Wolverine would be. That's the point of adjudicating: you can use your common sense for corner cases, while hard-coded rules can't.

 

[Aaron]

The 5e rules describe coup degrace for helpless. It does not say what creatures are helpless and which ones are not, that's the DM's job.

Not to sound rude, but are you deliberately ignoring my replies?

As I wrote twice in this small thread, the rules state that you can CdG unconscious creatures, that, in fact, are helpless.

But they do not state that you can CdG helpless creatures.
As written before, an unconscious character is helpless, but not all helpless characters are unconscious.

Depending on the situation. Charles Xavier is not helpless, even if paralized. Wolverine would be. That's the point of adjudicating: you can use your common sense for corner cases, while hard-coded rules can't.

The rules state that a paralized creature is not helpless. Otherwise they would have stated so, just as they do for the unconscious ones.

If it is during combat, a grapple against a defenseless princess will sufice. A defenseless princess is a princess who is declared defenseless by the DM. Joan of Arc wouldn't be defenseless, even if naked and barehanded, Sansa (from Game of thrones) would be, even if she were holding a Halberd.

I'm asking how I, as a PC, can grab my opponent as a hostage to make him helpless.

Can I grab Jaqen H'ghar disguised as a defenseless peasant with the same mechanic I would grab Sansa?

That's the point of adjudicating: you can use your common sense for corner cases, while hard-coded rules can't.

What about having rules for these situations?
In 3.5 I don't need to adjudicate in the situations you describe: both Wolverine and Xavier would be subject of a CdG, if paralized.

 

[triqui]

Not to sound rude, but are you deliberately ignoring my replies?

As I wrote twice in this small thread, the rules state that you can CdG unconscious creatures, that, in fact, are helpless.

But they do not state that you can CdG helpless creatures.
As written before, an unconscious character is helpless, but not all helpless characters are unconscious

I'm not. Are you ignoring mine? I understand that the rules are not a set in stone law that have to be hard-coded and key-worded, because they aren't an algorithm to be used by a brainless computer.

The *description* of the coup de grace make me to understand that being helpless is enough to coup de grace. And being helpless is not a game condition, but a description the DM does. Like being blonde. "this NPC is filthy, blond, and have long teeth. Oh, and it's currently helpless, so you can coup de grace him"

The rules state that a paralized creature is not helpless. Otherwise they would have stated so, just as they do for the unconscious ones.

No need for that, as helpless is not a condition, is a description. You only need that for hard-coded rules or algorithms that are going to be followed by computers or robots

I'm asking how I, as a PC, can grab my opponent as a hostage to make him helpless.

Same way. Declare it, if it is not in combat, use a grapple against a defenseless hostage if it's not.

Can I grab Jaqen H'ghar disguised as a defenseless peasant with the same mechanic I would grab Sansa?

No.

What about having rules for these situations?

They'll cover some things, but will fail misserably in others. For example, under the rules, the executioner in the gallows doesn't have the chance to coup de grace the fallen king. He does not even get combat advantage, because the king is kneeling, not prone. Regular attack, and hack and chop until the king is dead (so, if high level, might spend a few minutes chopping)

In 3.5 I don't need to adjudicate in the situations you describe: both Wolverine and Xavier would be subject of a CdG, if paralized.

And that's the problem with hard-coded rules. In 3.5, Xavier has the "helpless" condition because it has the "paralized" condition, and the rule says so. The common sense does not: Xavier, paralized, can kill you exactly as easily, can use his telekinesis to deflect your blow, and can fly and levitate. Yet you get a free critical because he can't move his body (well, half of it. He couldn't move the other half before anyways).

It's the whole "who assigns cover" debate. If the cover is designated by he number of corners your square are visible from other corners in other square, then doing things like hiding behind corners and using a mirror to look lose any sense.