D&D 5E CR balance and proof of concept...or not

[GMforPowergamers]

so in the Q&A thread I had this exchange

If diffrent classes at the same level are diffrent cr how can you balance any class combo

This is why thy gave every class either a spendable resource (spells, surges, ki) door a big reliable class feature (sneak attack, rage).

This way every class works as attrition or in nova.

I want to take it a step further... lets assume that they have there math for CR right, that when I make a Mage or Paladin or Fighter/Thief NPC and go to the DMG and get a CR based on how tough they really are. (I in no way just assume this is correct but for this discussion lets assume they got it right)

How does that effect combat balance.

If my PCs are level 5 and are an Elvin Fighter(eldritch knight) 3/Wizard (abjurer)2 a Dwarven Paladin (Classic LG) 5 a Human Bard(warlord build) 5, and a half elf Ranger (giant slayer) 4/Rogue (assassin)1 but they are not all CR 5 then how can any encounter be balanced for them?

Example with made up numbers:

if that perfect CR calculator peg them at CR7, CR 5, CR 4 and CR 6 then that would work out close to ok (average CR 5) but if it says CR 7, CR4 CR 3 CR4 then that is a average CR 4... do I have to then lower the challenges?

if this concept works, how far of a deviation is acceptable to still be balanced?

If I took my fighter (battlemaster) 9 and best friends fighter (slayer) 9 and did the math and saw that mine was a CR 12 and his was a CR7 would that then prove a disbalanced system?

 

[Blackbrrd]

You do not use cr to build encounters, but xp.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You do not use cr to build encounters, but xp.

yes but if CR is the amount of challenge then there is some level of amount of power you can lay out...

 

[Ruzak]

I think CR, particularly as it deviates from class level, is only relevant for critters who fight in only one encounter, and so are free to nova. For the PCs the ability to go all out on one battle is balanced by the rest of the day. For the typical bad guy this is not so. If you have a rival whom you continue to fight throughout the day, then class level is actually probably a better measure than CR.
The converse of this is that in the five minute work day wizards are too powerful, which is another issue.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

As I understand it, 5E CR is just a measure of what to throw/not to throw at your players. You'll also have information like "an opponent who can reliably deal X damage with an at-will attack should be CR Y". It will be used to complement the XP budget, which is the source you'll use to build encounters.

CR (they're using this name to avoid calling one more thing in the game "level") will help DMs in avoiding mistakes like spending their entire XP budget in a single creature, then realizing that each attack of said opponent will drop a PC with an average damage roll.

Also, as pointed earlier, player character's don't have CR. They have their level, and probably we'll have a table that points to the level you'll have to reach before having a real chance facing monsters of a given CR.

 

[Blackbrrd]

yes but if CR is the amount of challenge then there is some level of amount of power you can lay out...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dndqa/20140425

It’s also worth noting that, because you use the monsters’ XP value, not their CR, when gauging the difficulty of encounters and adventures, the actual CR value is of little significance beyond being a relative gauge of power among all monsters

In other words, don't use the CR to build encounters, use the xp.

 

[Minigiant]

You build with XP.

CR tells you that your pimped out damage fighter is CR 8 even though he is level 5 because he deals ~30 damage an turn after buffing up and using an Action Surge.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You build with XP.

CR tells you that your pimped out damage fighter is CR 8 even though he is level 5 because he deals ~30 damage an turn after buffing up and using an Action Surge.

ok, so now we are back to what if the pcs come out difrent CRs?

 

[the Jester]

ok, so now we are back to what if the pcs come out difrent CRs?

CR isn't a tool for evaluating pcs, but rather for evaluating monsters. The challenge a pc type character poses to a group of pcs is far different from how much a pc type character can contribute to a fight with other pcs on his side (or so I would posit, based on every past edition).

There will never be a perfect mathematical way to evaluate monsters unless we make them a bag of numbers with no flavor, so I think CR will always remain a "close enough" tool.

 

[Minigiant]

ok, so now we are back to what if the pcs come out difrent CRs?

CR is for evaluation of whether the monster is appropriate to the difficulty the DM wants. If a mage NPC can launch 4 fireballs, he is about as difficult as a monster with a fireball at will. If that monster is CR 9 and your PCs are not 9th level, then expect the mage to nudge up the fights difficulty despite being only a level 6 wizard.