CR/EL System View

[Hussar]

Of course there ought to be a range - making an exact system, even if possible, would be more trouble than it'd be worth.

But suggesting that the 8th level Fighter and the Stone Giant are in the same "range" is completely absurd, when the latter is 50 to 100 percent ahead in most measurable categories. It's a bigger mismatch than a 1st level human Fighter vs. an Ogre.

And the fact the Ogre Mage is too weak for its CR is just another example of the system not working - two wrongs don't balance each other out.

Well, let us peruse CR 8 monsters, as an example.

Athach HD: 14d8+70 HP: 133 AC: 20/9/19 Attack +12/+7 for 3d6+8 plus +12 (3d6+4)X2 and bite +12 for 2d8+4+poison 15 foot reach f/r/w: 9/5/10 (probably the biggest of the lot)
Behir HD 9d10+45 HP: 94 AC 20/9/19 Attack: Bite +15 for 2d4+12 SA of Constrict and rake plus a 7d6 breath weapon.
Erinyes: HD: 9d8+45 HP: 85 AC 23/15/18 Attack +14/+9 for 1d8+5 F/R/W: 11/11/10 Immunities and some minor spell abilities.
Dire Tiger HD: 1d68+48 HP:120 AC: 17/11/15 Attack +20 for 2d4+8x2 bite +14 for 2d6+4 F/R/W: 13/12/11
Efreeti HD 10d8+20 HP 65 AC 18/12/15 Attack +15/+15 for 1d8+6+1d6 fire. F/R/W:9/10/9 Several spell like abilities.
9 headed Hydra HD 9d10+48 HP 97 AC 19/9/18 Attack 9 bites +13 for 1d10+5 F/R/W: 11/7/5

Meh, I'm getting bored of listing this stuff. There's the first 6 that I could find. AC's are all similar. Hp's are close. I'd say all those are about the same challenge to an 8th level party. Sure, some can do far more damage, like the hydra, but, it lacks special attacks and abilities, and has no ranged attack. A party with an 8th level mage can simply fly over it. While it has scent, as does the Dire Tiger, the others are very susceptible to invisibility. The 8th level fighter? Should be carting around about 10k gp worth of equipment. That's more than enough to make up for the differences with the giant.

As I said, I've had no problems with the CR system. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time with it.

 

[mmu1]

As I said, I've had no problems with the CR system. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time with it.

Careful, you'll get that ego caught on something.

I don't have a "hard time" with the CR system - I simply know it's broken and inaccurate, and I don't need it or use it.

But, hey, if calling HPs ranging from 65 to 133, ACs ranging from 17 to 23, and attacks ranging from +14/+9 for 1d8+5 to +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13 for 1d10+5 "close" works for you and your players, great.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The 8th level NPC fighter from the DMG has AC 23, 64 hit points, +12/+7 to hit, 1d10+6 damage with +1 bastard sword and weapon specialization, saves +8 Fort +3 Ref +3 Will.

A stone giant has has AC 25, 119 hit points, +17/+12 to hit, 2d8+12 damage, saves +13 Fort +6 Ref +7 Will, and 10 foot reach.

Compare it to the Efreeti, and you'll find it much more on par.

The rules state that CR is a guideline and that assigning them is an art, not a science. It's a judgement call made by designers based on what they know a party of 8th level characters may have at their disposal. Knowing that 8th level PC's probably have about +8-+13 to hit, probably deal about 8-15 damage per attack, and have spell DC's in the range of 15-20, AC's around 18-22, both creatures seem like an appropriate challenge for 8th level characters. Are they equal in every way? Of course not. But as far as rating their challenge goes, this is a judgement call is one I can agree with.

Now, as characters, their powers would be much more divergent -- the NPC would be slightly weak, while the stone giant would be fairly strong. And the stone giant is obviously more potent than the NPC in melee combat. Enough to bump it up to a level 9 challenge? Debatable. Or to bump the NPC down? Probably not. But that's why CR's are a judgement call and a guideline, not a hard-and-fast rule.

And showing a slight range within the span of a single CR rating does nothing to show that the CR's are wildly inaccurate or totally worthless or any of the other spuriously exaggerated claims I'm hearing. Even if some are off, they're still close enough to pretty much go either way between two numbers that are right next to each other, at least judging by this example. That's still a useful guideline for rating their challenge, because it means that the 8th level party might have a different time of it in different encounters, even within their own level -- some will be maybe 15% of their rescources, some 25%, but that's pretty acceptable (even desirable) variation in my book.

 

[Grog]

And showing a slight range within the span of a single CR rating does nothing to show that the CR's are wildly inaccurate or totally worthless or any of the other spuriously exaggerated claims I'm hearing.

Come on. A slight range? The giant has 55 more hit points (nearly twice as many), an AC 2 points higher, an attack bonus 5 points better, average damage per round 20 points higher, 10 foot reach, and saving throws that are twice as good. You can't seriously expect anyone to buy the contention that there's only a "slight" difference between these two enemies.

There's a "slight" difference between a gnoll and a 1st level fighter. This is more like a "huge, yawning chasm worth of difference."

This is not a "spuriously exaggerated claim" and you know it.

And if you bring non-core books into the equation (like the MM2 and MM3), all you can do is just laugh and shake your head.

Like I said, the CR system is completely worthless except as a (very) loose guideline. And sometimes, as in the case of the 8th level fighter vs. the stone giant, it fails at even that.

 

[Fishbone]

8th level Fighter versus Efreeti is a laugh, too. The Efreeti is superior in all fighting categories except AC, has far better saves, is a lot more mobile, and it has a boatload of SLAs. Fact is, the 8th level fighter gets equalled or clowned by CR 8 monsters just from the MM.
NPCs CR is off. By a lot.
Its not just swordslingers. You give me an NPC caster and I'll best it with a creature that casts at or above the NPCs level that is significantly better in almost all statistical catergories.

 

[Celebrim]

8th level Fighter versus Efreeti is a laugh, too. The Efreeti is superior in all fighting categories except AC, has far better saves, is a lot more mobile, and it has a boatload of SLAs. Fact is, the 8th level fighter gets equalled or clowned by CR 8 monsters just from the MM.
NPCs CR is off. By a lot.
Its not just swordslingers. You give me an NPC caster and I'll best it with a creature that casts at or above the NPCs level that is significantly better in almost all statistical catergories.

Agreed. In fact, the situation is worse if the NPC is a support class or generalist like Bard or Monk. At best, the CR of a class like that might be ECL - 1. My experience is that is being generous.

And that ignores the biggest problem. We are no longer in a situation like 1st edition where any two 8th level fighters were roughly equivalent except for hitpoints and possibly the possession of a magic item (both things which were taken into account in the 1st edition XP system). Depending on the build, the point buy, the min-maxing, and the equipment the CR of an 8th level fighter could be roughly anywhere between about 7 and about 3.

And you can't claim that an 8th level NPC's fighter's CR is that high based on the expected equipment, because if the NPC fighter had as much equipment as the PC fighter then after each EL 8 encounter, the party would increase its treasure by roughly 25% - and that's well above the guidelines for expected treasure per encounter. To be balanced 8th ECL level NPC's of playable races should provide the same ammount of expected treasure as any other CR 8 creature.

And don't get me started on the CR of mooks. Doubling the number of mooks doesn't increase the CR by 2 if the parties ECL is more than a couple levels about the parties CR. Four gnolls is not a CR 5 challenge. Eight gnolls isn't even close to CR 7, much less close to the threat of a CR 7 dragon. Versus four 7th level PC's, eight gnolls are roughly CR 4 and a CR 7 dragon is probably closer to CR 9. Which brings me to my other point. Challenges are relative to the party level. As characters go up in level, they obtain gross abilities like flight and fireball and extremely high AC's which suddenly rather than incrementally make former challenges relatively easier. For example, the difference between a physical monster needing a 18 to hit and needing a 20 to hit is the monster is suddenly 1/3rd as dangerous. Suddenly that horde of mooks has to triple in size to maintain the same relative challenge, and thats to say nothing of what happens when the party can throw fireballs ruetinely.

 

[Hussar]

And don't get me started on the CR of mooks. Doubling the number of mooks doesn't increase the CR by 2 if the parties ECL is more than a couple levels about the parties CR. Four gnolls is not a CR 5 challenge. Eight gnolls isn't even close to CR 7, much less close to the threat of a CR 7 dragon. Versus four 7th level PC's, eight gnolls are roughly CR 4 and a CR 7 dragon is probably closer to CR 9. Which brings me to my other point. Challenges are relative to the party level. As characters go up in level, they obtain gross abilities like flight and fireball and extremely high AC's which suddenly rather than incrementally make former challenges relatively easier. For example, the difference between a physical monster needing a 18 to hit and needing a 20 to hit is the monster is suddenly 1/3rd as dangerous. Suddenly that horde of mooks has to triple in size to maintain the same relative challenge, and thats to say nothing of what happens when the party can throw fireballs ruetinely.

And you would be absolutely correct. 4 gnolls is an EL 4 encounter. 8 gnolls would be EL 6. Is 8 gnolls tougher than say a single troll? I'd say so. About the same as a Megaraptor (CR 6), pretty close.

The problem with the fighter example above is everyone, for some reason, is having the fighter naked. An 8th level fighter should be carting around about 15 k worth of equipment. That would bridge the gap fairly well between him and the efreeti.

Sure, if the party is geared for dealing with mooks - lots of evocation spells - then that threat will be less. But, how about a party which lacks a mage? Say a party of two fighter types, a cleric and a thief? Now mooks are a serious threat, while single creatures get absolutely crushed. It all balances in the wash.

The mistake that I think many people make is in thinking that a given encounter, where EL=APL, should be a tough fight. It shouldn't. It should be a fairly easy fight that the party barely works up a sweat on. The fighter gets chewed on, the cleric heals him and the wizard and rogue do whatever they do. 20% of resources. That's it.

The fact that you have a range of opponents within a given CR is not a mistake in the system. It's a recognition that certain opponents are going to be different challenges against certain groups. A group with lots of enchanters, for example, giggle at hydras. A group with a druid or a ranger might make quick work of the dire animals. But, overall, these creatures are roughly the same challenge.

It isn't a question of ego. As I stated before, I've used these guidelines a lot over the past year or two with over a couple of hundred combat encounters and, far more than not, they accurately predict the outcome of a combat.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

CR/EL was always meant to be a guideline for DMs.

In my experience over the last 6-7 years it works.

J. Grenemyer

 

[irdeggman]

CR/EL was always meant to be a guideline for DMs.

In my experience over the last 6-7 years it works.

J. Grenemyer

Agreed.

And it is a heck of lot better than the 2nd ed system when it comes to trying to figure out what good challenge for the party is.

But you always have to remember that "circumstances" play a huge factor in adjudicating the challenge.

 

[Nikosandros]

Dispose of entirely.

Well, I can see it being kind of problematic in AD&D...