CR/EL System View

[Nikosandros]

Regarding the topic at hand, I basically don't use it... sure CR can give some vague idea about the power of a monster, but my parties are typically so unusual that I have to re-calibrate everything myself. As for XP I've always handled them by fiat since being disappointed by the results that I got from going by the book in first adventure that I've ever ran (B3).

 

[Celebrim]

And you would be absolutely correct. 4 gnolls is an EL 4 encounter.

Not even close. I'd expect 4 gnolls to go down to a level 4 party without forcing the PC's to break a sweat.

8 gnolls would be EL 6. Is 8 gnolls tougher than say a single troll? I'd say so.

Again, not even close. By the time that the party is 6th level, the players AC is reaching the point where the gnolls can't hit except by being lucky, and the party generates damage fast enough that the gnolls will be hitting the floor without doing much of anything.

The problem with the fighter example above is everyone, for some reason, is having the fighter naked. An 8th level fighter should be carting around about 15 k worth of equipment. That would bridge the gap fairly well between him and the efreeti.

You are wrong for several reasons. For one, 15k worth of equipment is significantly above the expected treasure for EL 8. Secondly, after 4 such encounters, the party would have 60k worth of treasure to split amongst them. After 13.3 such encounters enough to hit level 9, the party now has 200k amongst them - or 50k for each 9th level character plus what they had to begin 8th level with.

So the 'logic' of having the 8th level NPC fighter with 15k worth of equipment breaks down a bit. Besides which, the DMG states something completely different in Table 4-23. Besides which, I'm not even sure that the equipment does make up the difference in most cases. Besides which, its not like the stone giant is necessarily naked either.

Sure, if the party is geared for dealing with mooks - lots of evocation spells - then that threat will be less. But, how about a party which lacks a mage?

Then it lacks a weak point of a low AC character which is vunerable to the gnolls physical attacks.

Say a party of two fighter types, a cleric and a thief? Now mooks are a serious threat...

No, they are not. With two fighters and a cleric on the front line, mooks will get lucky to hit anyone. Meanwhile, they have to deal with the problem that none of them can generate damage fast enough to ever force the cleric to do more than an occassional cure light wounds, multiple attacks from the fighters without an AC that can protect them from even the iterative attacks, and probably cleave from at least one of the fighters. It will be a slaughter.

The mistake that I think many people make is in thinking that a given encounter, where EL=APL, should be a tough fight. It shouldn't. It should be a fairly easy fight that the party barely works up a sweat on. The fighter gets chewed on, the cleric heals him and the wizard and rogue do whatever they do. 20% of resources. That's it.

I'm saying nothing about the absolute difficulty of a fight. I'm just saying that relative to other encounters of the same EL, multiple mooks is an easier encounter period. It's not just an easier encounter for parties with evokers, its an easier encounter period. In fact, one of the many reasons that evocation is not worth wasting spells slots on is that the sort of encounters it really helps on are no real threat to the party anyway. Fireball is overkill against almost anything it is useful for (swarms excepting), and pretty much a waste against anything that's an actual threat for your EL.

It isn't a question of ego. As I stated before, I've used these guidelines a lot over the past year or two with over a couple of hundred combat encounters and, far more than not, they accurately predict the outcome of a combat.

Well, then we are an an empass. That's not my experience. There is no chance that we would convince each other than are own experiences didn't happen.

 

[DragonLancer]

The problem with the CR system is that although it takes level/HD and special abilities into consideration, it doesn't do it enough. It pretty much ignores AC as well - the monster's creator needs to consider whether having a higher or lower AC should affect the CR. For SA and the the like, the CR system does not take into acount the difference between a monster with a Sleep ability or a Finger of Death ability. It doesn't adequately consider the boosts that magic items and buff spells add to a party, especially at higher levels.

 

[I'm A Banana]

There's a "slight" difference between a gnoll and a 1st level fighter. This is more like a "huge, yawning chasm worth of difference."

This is not a "spuriously exaggerated claim" and you know it.

You know what an exaggeration is, how is "huge, yawning chasm" not an exaggeration?

I mean, if the difference was between a 1st level fighter and a great wyrm or balor or even beholder, or ogre, I could see your case. But as it is, the difference isn't unbridgable at all; rather, it's well within the margin of guidelines.

 

[Imperialus]

Ballancing encounters is IMO one of the most difficult things that a DM has to do. It's been an issue since first ed and the CR system does work better than it did previously. What's really fun is trying to ballance encounters in a game like Shadowrun where there is literally no guidelines apart from how high on average someones skills are.

I like the CR's. It gives me an idea of what the party can seriously expect to go up against and win and gives me a general idea of how badly battered about they'll be at the end of it. It isn't perfect but lets face it, if it was, we really wouldn't need DM's.

 

[Grog]

The problem with the fighter example above is everyone, for some reason, is having the fighter naked.

He's not naked. He has the equipment listed in the NPC section of the DMG.

 

[Grog]

You know what an exaggeration is, how is "huge, yawning chasm" not an exaggeration?

I mean, if the difference was between a 1st level fighter and a great wyrm or balor or even beholder, or ogre, I could see your case. But as it is, the difference isn't unbridgable at all; rather, it's well within the margin of guidelines.

Let's compare the 8th level DMG fighter vs. the stone giant with the 1st level DMG fighter vs. the ogre. They're all meele brutes, so this will be fairly easy.

The 8th level NPC fighter from the DMG has AC 23, 64 hit points, +12/+7 to hit, 1d10+6 damage with +1 bastard sword and weapon specialization, saves +8 Fort +3 Ref +3 Will.

A stone giant has has AC 25, 119 hit points, +17/+12 to hit, 2d8+12 damage, saves +13 Fort +6 Ref +7 Will, and 10 foot reach.

Against the stone giant, the fighter hits 40% of the time with his first attack and 15% of the time with his second attack. Average damage per hit is 11.5, so average damage per round (ignoring crits to keep the math simple) is 6.3 points per round.

Against the fighter, the stone giant hits 75% of the time with his first attack and 50% of the time with his second attack. Average damage per hit is 21, so average damage per round (again, ignoring crits) is 26.25. It'll take the stone giant 3 rounds to drop the fighter.

So, if the fighter wins initiative, he'll deal about 19 points of damage to the stone giant before he dies. The stone giant will lose 16% of his hit points. (This, btw, is where the "huge, yawning chasm worth of difference" comes in - the stone giant can kill six of these fighters, who are supposedly in the same power "range" as he is, in a row with no healing or resting).

The 1st level NPC fighter from the DMG has AC 18, 12 hit points, +4 to hit, and does 1d10+2 damage with masterwork bastard sword.

An ogre has AC 16, 29 hit points, +8 to hit, and does 2d8+7 damage.

Against the ogre, the fighter hits 45% of the time for 7.5 average damage, making his average damage per round 3.375.

Against the fighter, the ogre hits 55% of the time for 16 average damage, making his average damage per round 8.8. It'll take him 2 rounds to drop the fighter.

So, if the fighter wins initiative, he'll deal ~6.5 points of damage to the ogre before he dies. The ogre will lose 22.5% of his hit points.

As you can see, the 1st level DMG fighter actually does better against an ogre (which is 2 CRs higher than him) than his 8th level counterpart does against a stone giant (which is the same CR).

If that's not evidence that the CR system is completely screwy, I don't know what is.

 

[FireLance]

If that's not evidence that the CR system is completely screwy, I don't know what is.

First off, the true test of CR is not whether one creature can beat up another creature with the same CR, but how well it performs against a standard party of four adventurers (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) each of level equal to the CR.

Second, the NPC fighter statistics quoted lack a few things: racial abilities, some feats, and about 4,900 gp worth of equipment. Making the NPC a dwarf, for example, helps to close the hit point gap without significantly affecting a fighter's class abilities.

Picking the right combination of feats and equipment can close the gap further. An 8th-level dwarf fighter with Toughness (x3), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Dodge, Power Attack, gauntlets of ogre power, +1 full plate armor, +1 amulet of natural armor, and a +1 greatsword has AC 21 (22 with Dodge), 81 hp, attacks at +15/+10 and deals 2d6+12 points of damage. Still not as good as a stone giant, but not very different from a CR 7 hill giant (AC 20, 102 hp, +16/+11 for 2d8+10). Hence, even if the fighter is a slightly easier fight, it isn't excessively so. And this is assuming core only. With non-core options such as Improved Toughness, Heavy Armor Optimization, and Martial Study to gain access to Book of Nine Swords maneuvers, the fighter gets even better.

In addition, the fighter can do more than threaten hit points. Give him Improved Sunder and an admantine weapon (+3,000 gp), and the PCs will fear for their gear. Give him a necklace of fireballs (Type II or III) (2,700 gp or 4,350 gp), and there could be a 6d6 or 7d6 fireball washing over all the PCs in the first round of combat (the rogue will probably evade it, though). Switch some ability scores around so that he can take Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, arm him with a heavy flail or spiked chain, and you get a good trick fighter. Challenge isn't just about stripping hit points from the PCs.

 

[Li Shenron]

How do view the CR/EL system? Do you think it is something to strictly adhere to? Do you see it as more of an art then a science and use it as a guideline? Or do you throw it out entirely?

I don't actually understand what you mean with "adhere" to the system...

I take a look at CRs before I design an encounter, and at ELs in published adventure before deciding if it's appropriate for the party. If I didn't even take a look at it, I would simply have less information about it... better have some incomplete or vague info than none at all.

If you mean instead how strictly I give xp compared to the CR, well it depends on the campaign. Sometimes I give xp quite freely or just level up when appropriate, and other times I gave them strictly. It actually depends on what the players want, not me.

 

[mmu1]

First off, the true test of CR is not whether one creature can beat up another creature with the same CR, but how well it performs against a standard party of four adventurers (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) each of level equal to the CR.

Second, the NPC fighter statistics quoted lack a few things: racial abilities, some feats, and about 4,900 gp worth of equipment. Making the NPC a dwarf, for example, helps to close the hit point gap without significantly affecting a fighter's class abilities.

1. Yeah, we all know what the textbook definition of CR is. But you don't need to run a whole-scale mock combat against a complete party to evaluate relative combat effectiveness.

2. Like it's been pointed out before - the NPC fighter isn't supposed to have all that extra equipment... But if we're handing out free equipment, why don't we give the Stone Giant some, too? Like, say, a suit of full plate and a masterwork weapon. That ought to bring his AC up by, what, 5 points? And that's without any magic. (that actually highlights yet another failure of the CR system - it doesn't account for equipment)