CR/EL System View

[kigmatzomat]

It all comes down to tactics

It must be a guideline simply because no two GMs will run monsters the same way consistently. I'm a method-actor type of GM, who views tactics through the creatures' eyes, which can result in unorthodox maneuvers like Int2 creatures with high DR developing "drop bear" tactics, plus determining when creatures flee and how they flee will vary from GM to GM.

If it were a computer game where the DM just sets up the monster in position then the CR/EL system would be much more accurate and easily tailored. Heck, you could essentially have the computer run a giant death match to determine CRs.

Then there is the fact that some GMs will "misuse" creatures. Or more appropriately, they won't recognize the EL adjustments that are in effect because they aren't the obvious ambush/extra equipment/no equipment/etc. For instance, subterranean creatures are often fine with their short-range darkvision/tremorsense because in a cave you can probably break line of sight in a fairly short distance. That same creature on the surface is almost a joke simply because it's too easy to see targets 100' away even in many forests.

I really wish the EL table had a "fish out of water" entry. Sure, a megalodon is a horror in the sea but beach that sucker and it's just dinner for 200.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Against the stone giant, the fighter hits 40% of the time with his first attack and 15% of the time with his second attack. Average damage per hit is 11.5, so average damage per round (ignoring crits to keep the math simple) is 6.3 points per round.

Against the fighter, the stone giant hits 75% of the time with his first attack and 50% of the time with his second attack. Average damage per hit is 21, so average damage per round (again, ignoring crits) is 26.25. It'll take the stone giant 3 rounds to drop the fighter.

So, if the fighter wins initiative, he'll deal about 19 points of damage to the stone giant before he dies. The stone giant will lose 16% of his hit points. (This, btw, is where the "huge, yawning chasm worth of difference" comes in - the stone giant can kill six of these fighters, who are supposedly in the same power "range" as he is, in a row with no healing or resting).

...


Against the ogre, the fighter hits 45% of the time for 7.5 average damage, making his average damage per round 3.375.

Against the fighter, the ogre hits 55% of the time for 16 average damage, making his average damage per round 8.8. It'll take him 2 rounds to drop the fighter.

So, if the fighter wins initiative, he'll deal ~6.5 points of damage to the ogre before he dies. The ogre will lose 22.5% of his hit points.

As you can see, the 1st level DMG fighter actually does better against an ogre (which is 2 CRs higher than him) than his 8th level counterpart does against a stone giant (which is the same CR).

If that's not evidence that the CR system is completely screwy, I don't know what is.

This isn't what CR is supposed to measure, so it's pretty worthless as evidence. Perhaps you are misunderstanding the concept of CR? It isn't a guideline for one-on-one exchanges of hits.

1. Yeah, we all know what the textbook definition of CR is. But you don't need to run a whole-scale mock combat against a complete party to evaluate relative combat effectiveness.

Well, yeah, you kind of do. I mean, that's what it is supposed to measure, after all. You can't use a ruler to measure radiation, you can't use CR to measure one-on-one combat capability. Throw that example 5th level DMG hobgoblin fighter against a party of 4th level, one of 5th level, and one of 6th level. If it is closest to sappipng 20% of the 5th level party's rescources, then it's better at CR 5 than CR 4 or CR 6.

2. Like it's been pointed out before - the NPC fighter isn't supposed to have all that extra equipment... But if we're handing out free equipment, why don't we give the Stone Giant some, too? Like, say, a suit of full plate and a masterwork weapon. That ought to bring his AC up by, what, 5 points? And that's without any magic. (that actually highlights yet another failure of the CR system - it doesn't account for equipment)

According to the 3.5e DMG NPC table, an 8th level fighter has +1 Full Plate, +1 Heavy Steel Shield, +1 melee weapon, +1 ranged weapon, and 4,900 gp of other gear. So it's not free equipment, it's equipment that should be factored in to the creature's CR.

I'm beginning to get the impression that those that think CR is completely worthless don't understand CR, and even if they do, their belief arrives at a faulty reading of the books.

 

[Celebrim]

And that's without any magic. (that actually highlights yet another failure of the CR system - it doesn't account for equipment)

More precisely, it doesn't account for the effect of nonstandard equipment. Suppose a stone giant is assumed to have 900gp worth of usable combat equipment. How does that same stone giant's challenge change if he has 3600gp worth of equipment intead? How about 9600gp?

So, you fudge it.

 

[Celebrim]

This isn't what CR is supposed to measure, so it's pretty worthless as evidence. Perhaps you are misunderstanding the concept of CR? It isn't a guideline for one-on-one exchanges of hits.

No, it isn't. But a one-on-one exchange of hits is in many cases linearly related to the CR of the monster. As you yourself note, CR is supposed to measure what is expected to happen in a combat. A 4-1 combat is not nearly as different from a 1 on 1 combat as you claim. It's not the same as the difference between length and radiation. Just because you can make absurd analogies like that doesn't make them valid. As long as we are making analogies, it's more like the difference between length and volume.

According to the 3.5e DMG NPC table, an 8th level fighter has +1 Full Plate, +1 Heavy Steel Shield, +1 melee weapon, +1 ranged weapon, and 4,900 gp of other gear. So it's not free equipment, it's equipment that should be factored in to the creature's CR.

Agreed, but let me note that I'm the one that was noting that when the defenders of the CR system claimed that an 8th level NPC fighter had an assumed 15k gp of equipment. Either way, it doesn't bring the 8th level fighters CR up to 8 (even twinking out the NPC fighter with things like guantlets of ogre power only brought it up to about CR 7 at best).

I'm beginning to get the impression that those that think CR is completely worthless don't understand CR, and even if they do, their belief arrives at a faulty reading of the books.

I'm beginning to think that those that claim CR is anything more than a rough and usually faulty guideline have limited playing experience, and even if they don't, thier belief arrives from a having about the same perceptiveness as a brick. But, perhaps I should avoid hasty broad negative generalizations, don't you think?

 

[Grog]

First off, the true test of CR is not whether one creature can beat up another creature with the same CR, but how well it performs against a standard party of four adventurers (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) each of level equal to the CR.

Agreed. However, when you're comparing two meele-oriented creatures, seeing how they perform in meele against each other is a good test of whether or not they're in the same "range" power-wise as many here are claiming they are. Of course, you have to allow for some discrepancy - but like I said, a stone giant can kill six 8th level DMG fighters in a row without having to rest or heal. That's a lot more than just "some" discrepancy.

Second, the NPC fighter statistics quoted lack a few things: racial abilities, some feats, and about 4,900 gp worth of equipment. Making the NPC a dwarf, for example, helps to close the hit point gap without significantly affecting a fighter's class abilities.

Sure. Or he could just as easily be an elf and have even less hit points. And in my calculations, I gave him Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Specialization, so that's three feats right there.

In addition, the fighter can do more than threaten hit points. Give him Improved Sunder and an admantine weapon (+3,000 gp), and the PCs will fear for their gear. Give him a necklace of fireballs (Type II or III) (2,700 gp or 4,350 gp), and there could be a 6d6 or 7d6 fireball washing over all the PCs in the first round of combat (the rogue will probably evade it, though). Switch some ability scores around so that he can take Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, arm him with a heavy flail or spiked chain, and you get a good trick fighter. Challenge isn't just about stripping hit points from the PCs.

And with the exception of the necklace of fireballs, the stone giant can do everything you listed above much better than the fighter can. He's better at sundering because he does more damage, and he's better at disarming and tripping because he has a longer reach.

No matter how you slice it, the 8th level DMG fighter and the stone giant are not even close in terms of power.

 

[Grog]

I'm beginning to get the impression that those that think CR is completely worthless don't understand CR, and even if they do, their belief arrives at a faulty reading of the books.

And I'm beginning to get the impression that you aren't actually interested in debating the merits of the CR system, but rather simply insulting those who disagree with you. So I'm reporting your post to the mods, and we're done here. Come back if and when you want to actually address the substance of my argument without throwing around childish insults.

 

[Celebrim]

And I'm beginning to get the impression that you aren't actually interested in debating the merits of the CR system, but rather simply insulting those who disagree with you. So I'm reporting your post to the mods, and we're done here. Come back if and when you want to actually address the substance of my argument without throwing around childish insults.

Oh don't do that. Sheesh. When you post, "I'm going to go run and tell the teacher on you.", you give up whatever high ground you gain when you are in the right and being insulted for it. It just makes you seem as small and petty as they are being.

 

[Grog]

Oh don't do that. Sheesh. When you post, "I'm going to go run and tell the teacher on you.", you give up whatever high ground you gain when you are in the right and being insulted for it. It just makes you seem as small and petty as they are being.

Well it certainly beats sinking to his level.

 

[Rel]

How about EVERYBODY debating this take a deep breath. DO continue to discuss the issue. STOP discussing your fellow posters.

 

[Fishbone]

The giants are the core pinnacle of combat meastiness, perhaps having an 8th level core fighter try to outmeast a Stone Giant is a bit unfair? Lets have a breakdown of the 8th level fighter versus some scrub monsters.
8th level Fighter Versus 10-diced Elite scored Hellcock(Technically achaierai, but I refuse to type that any further)
HP:64 Versus 85 Large edge here for the Hellcock
AC: Both 22, Hellcock has better touch AC, fighter could spend wealth on AC pumping cheese, maybe 4-8 more AC. The Hellcock has Dodge and Mobility but I still give the nod to the fighter. The advantage is as big as you want it to be.
Attacks +12/+7 versus +16/+14(took multiattack as the HD feat)
Movement: The Fullplate rocking fighter gets a circle danced around it here, 20 feet versus 50 feet, plus the Hellcock has the Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack tree.
Damage: Edge to the Hellcock. Two attacks at 2d6+7 and another one at 4d6+3 damage, and all of them are significantly more likely to hit.
Saves and miscellanea: Hellcock by quite a bit, its worst save is better than the fighter's best.
SR 19 is also a big deal for a group of 7th or 8th level people to overcome.
Factor in a breath weapon that functions as Insanity at DC 19 and the verdict? The fighter gets blown out of the water here.
Its plain to see that even such a benchwarmer creature like the Hellcock is better than a core Fighter. Now if it were say, a Raging Dwarf barbarian the edge would not be that big but it would still exsist.
Edit:I was being nice by not giving out some levels instead of the elite scores. Just about every martial class is attractive. The Barbarian rage and the fighter's 2 free feats would make the thing a lot scarier.