CR/EL System View

[Fishbone]

Flying is something the 8th level swordswinger most likely cannot do.
Any demon, elemental, or magical beast that can fly will destroy the typical single digit level melee character.
And this makes the EL/CR system balanced how exactly?
Oh, and an elder Xorn would wreck that NPC fighter, too. Throw another shrimp on the barbie.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The ability to fly.

Which, I might add, 8th level PCs can do, and Stone Giants can't.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

No, more like a "Since it doesn't assign CRs accurately based on something as simple and concrete like trading blows and losing through HP attrition, it's completely nonsensical to assume that attempting to factor in things that are difficult to quantify will somehow make it work better." reasoning.

CR breaks down when it can no longer model in a mathematically predictive-- yet abstract-- way.

But there is certainly more to CR than trading blows and losing HP.

Not only does CR model more than that on the monster's side, it is measured against "the typical party."

There are lots of ways for CR to go off the rails.

Matching up an 8th level fighter against a CR8 giant isn't one of those ways.

 

[Fishbone]

Not without blowing actions on drinking potions of Fly they can't.
Not to be a dick or anything, but 3 more creatures that beat that NPC Fighter
16 HD Tendriculos
Hellwasp Swarm
Young Adult White Dragon

 

[Celebrim]

CR is only useful as a concrete, mathematical measurement of "combat expectation."

Yes. Or rather, that is the intention. It is only useful if it is a concrete measurement of combat expectation.

But, in admitting that you seem to have given away the whole 'game' to start with. If you say CR is only useful as a concete mathematical measurement of combat expectation, then it would seem your whole argument with me falls apart.

What you seem to be missing is all of the factors that go into CR beyond BAB, hit points, and damage-- and no, I'm not talking about whether or not you can negotiate your way past a fight.

I'm not missing them at all. I'm merely pointing out that they don't have alot of impact on a concrete measurement of combat expectation. By your own standards of what CR is for, factors that don't have a concrete impact on combat expectation can basically be discounted as far as CR is concerned.

The second, third, fourth, and subsequent "special ability" of a monster has less and less of an impact on its CR because a creature still gets only one action per turn.

Well, yes, but this has nothing to do with anything in particular except that a creature with abilities that are broad rather than deep probably shouldn't have its CR bumped up as much, particularly if those additional abilities don't have a concrete impact on combat expectation.

If I may summerize what you are going with here, a creatures ECL and LA can be higher than its CR because they may have abilities with a long term and ongoing impact that don't relate to combat expectation. For example healing hits per hour is a greating for a character, but not that important to CR. Or for an extreme example, a Craft (pottery) skill of +20 may well be useful, but it doesn't do much to increase a characters CR.

But none of that suggests I'm confused about what CR measures, and instead suggests you are confusing LA and CR.

A creature with the ability to attack, sneak attack, heal, and cast a buff spell is not equal to a typical party of four, despite the fact that it can mimic the singular abilities of any one of them.

Sure. Because it only gets a certain number of actions per round. But again, this has nothing to do with CR, because as you said CR is a concrete measurement of combat expectation and not a measurement of general fitness the way ECL or LA is.

Your view of CR simply as a measure of how well combatants can trade blows back and forth until one of them is dead by attrition will limit your ability to use CR and EL as a predictor.

So, after beginning this little essay of yours with the thesis 'CR is a concrete measurement of combat expectation', and after providing evidence to that effect, you then proceed from there to the conclusion that CR is not in fact a measurement of combat expectation???

How in the world do you think that follows? For that matter, what makes you think that a creatures special abilities which could give it an advantage in combat situations (that is through tactics) aren't part of the combat expectations?

The ability to fly.

Are you saying that the ability to fly doesn't potentially have an impact on combat which would increase the creatures CR? Where the heck do you get that? Any creature which has a movement mode or rate which can give it a significant tactical advantage qualifies for having its CR bumped up to reflect that increased challenge. Conversely, creatures like a zombie or a gelatinous cube have thier CR knocked down a bit because of thier poor movement rate and limited tactical ability. Either potentially qualifies as having a higher CR if they had a superior movement rate or mode (flying fast moving gelatinous cubes are more dangerous, ei have higher combat expectations, than slow moving oozing ones).

But how that hurts my argument rather than yours I have no idea.

 

[mmu1]

Which, I might add, 8th level PCs can do, and Stone Giants can't.

...and the CR/EL system factors this in, how? (the PCs potential - and by no means guaranteed - ability to fly, I mean) Are you seriously claiming that the CR system is so robust, it's actually able to factor in things like that?

If anything, it's just proof of the CR system's... lack of usefuleness, let's say... if a single spell can change the encounter from an impossible to an easy one.

Besides, assuming you actually managed to prove that the CR system works and the Stone Giant is not, in fact, an atrocity - what are you going to say, then, about all the other CR 8 melee-based enemies out there that are weaker in every measurable way?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Flying is something the 8th level swordswinger most likely cannot do.
Any demon, elemental, or magical beast that can fly will destroy the typical single digit level melee character.
And this makes the EL/CR system balanced how exactly?

CR8 means, "This is a moderate challenge for a typical 8th level party of four."

CR8 means, "An 8th level party is expected to expend 25% of its resources to overcome this encounter, and they will prevail better than 87% of the time."

CR8 is not an appropriate encounter for a single 8th level character. CR8 would be an "extremely difficult" encounter for an 8th level character. The 8th level character has only a 50/50 chance of surviving, and then only by expending 100% of his resources.

Not without blowing actions on drinking potions of Fly they can't.

Which is precisely why having more actions is exponentially more useful.

Regardless, it only takes one action-- one potion-- to turn this fight from a deadly encounter to a giant pincushion.

What CR can't model, of course, is whether or not there's room to fly out of reach of the giant.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Why can't we just have monsters with an XP total at the bottom which is the sum of their hp, 10xAC and 5xthe number of their special abilities. Or anything, anything but some number which all too often seems to be picked out of thin air. Whether the CR is right or not purely depends on your gaming style. Give us an equation and we can fiddle with it to suit.

Amen.

 

[mmu1]

CR8 means, "This is a moderate challenge for a typical 8th level party of four."

CR8 means, "An 8th level party is expected to expend 25% of its resources to overcome this encounter, and they will prevail better than 87% of the time."

CR8 is not an appropriate encounter for a single 8th level character. CR8 would be an "extremely difficult" encounter for an 8th level character. The 8th level character has only a 50/50 chance of surviving, and then only by expending 100% of his resources.

First of all... If you want to insist that the 4-person party is integral to what CR means, then what you say about the chances of a single character isn't necessarily true - presumably, that single character's chances could be a lot worse than 50/50, since without the supporting abilities of the rest of the party, he might not have the right tools for the job. Then again, they might be a lot better, if that character has just the right ability.

However, if you want to generalize the way you just have, then an 8th level party of 4 expending 25% of its resources and a single 8th level character expending all or almost all of its resources for a 50% chance of winning are actually the exact same thing, mathematically speaking.

 

[Grog]

In other words, it seems to me that you are misunderstanding what CR actually measures.

No, I understand what CR actually measures just fine, thanks.

A stone giant may be able to kill 6 8th level NPC fighters, but could it kill 1 8th level PC fighter, 1 8th level PC rogue, 1 8th level PC cleric, and 1 8th level PC wizard? Or would it just consume some of their rescources and then be dead? CR was never meant to account for monster-on-monster (or NPC-on-NPC battles), so it's no surprise that you think it's wrong if you've been using it as such.

You completely missed the point of my comparison. Nowhere did I say that because a stone giant can kill six 8th level NPC fighters in a row, it necessarily follows that it could kill an average 8th level party. The point of my comparison was to compare the meele abilities of two meele-oriented creatures.

By my (admittedly rough) calculations, the stone giant performs roughly five to six times better in meele than the 8th level NPC fighter does. And yet these enemies are considered to have the same CR. That's evidence that the system simply doesn't work.

The substance of your argument is done no justice by gratuitous exaggerations and hyperbole. This isn't intended to insult, but to inform: you can criticize the CR/EL system (or whatever) without belittling it.

There are no exaggerations or hyperbole in my arguments. It's simply the case that, in my opinion, a system which claims two creatures are in the same "range" power-wise when one of them is five to six times better in its area of specialty is completely worthless. You are, of course, free to feel differently.