CR for paladins with warhorses?

[Plane Sailing]

For reasons related to my campaign, but PC's have just been attacked by four 6th level paladins, mounted on the special mounts.

I presume that each of the paladins is worth CR6 and this includes the bonded mount - but I have to say that a Paladin with a fighting, intelligent heavy warhorse is *much* harder than one without!

My question is - would you award CR6 exp for each paladin with a warhorse (since it *is* an expected class ability, after all).

And the related question - if PC's fought a paladin who *didn't* have his mount, would he be worth less xps? and by how much?

(the same adventure the PC's fought a Druid6 with a Dire Bear companion... technically I suppose they don't get extra xp for the dire bear, if it is there as a part of a class ability/spell - but I'm not sure, since it sure was one heck of a threat!

Ideas and opinions welcomed

 

[Cergorach]

Technically the paladins are still CR 6 each, but if the encounter is extra tough you could rule that a greater experience reward is in order. That is for every DM to decide, no hard rules for that...

Paladin mounts are the same as wizard/sorcerror familiars, they can be powerful in the right situation at the right time, other times they are a hindrance...

The Dire Bear example is a bad example, as it should be treathed as a CR monster, if it's not summoned on the spot. Same goes for a cleric that casts raise dead for weeks on end to create an undead army...

 

[Petrosian]

I am aware of there being a rule about not giving Xp for SUMMONED creatures...

I am not aware of ANY rule saying that companions or mounts or any other creature in the "force mix" so to speak does not count for CR purposes or the like.

So yes, i would count the mounts against the challenge rating. As you describe, they make a difference.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Thanks for the input guys.

That was my gut reaction for the Dire Bear without a shadow of a doubt.

The reason why I was suddenly wondering about the paladins mount was that technically it is a "class feature", and wondering back to all those threads about the "balance factor" in the various classes, I ended up wondering whether WotC and the playtesters had figured in the Mount. I would actually guess not, since (outside the dungeon) the jump in combat capability which a paladin gets between level 4 and level 5 is quite phenomenal, even if he has no riding feats and it just walks alongside him lashing out with its hooves!

What I might end up doing is working out what the experience would be for the warhorses and see what kind of EL adjustment it would work out as... after all, they were attacking in ideal terrain for them!

Regards,

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

#1: A paladin is much weaker than a fighter. Have a paladin and NPC fighter of equal level duke it out, and see who wins.

Also, paladin mounts don't gain any sort of official CR boost. There's a reason for that.

Instead, you should award a smaller XP amount. There's no hard and fast rule for how much to cut XP; base it on the "easiness" of the encounter.

#2: All classes have their moments to shine.

If you face a druid in the middle of the city, you'll win. If you face the same NPC druid in the wilderness, with 1 HD of animal companions per level and an Animal Growth spell, with all kinds of terrain altering spells set up ahead of time since that sparrow that landed on your tent was actually a druid, then the outcome will be much in doubt.

If you face a sorcerer in the middle of an empty plain, who saw you 400 feet away and has Improved Invisibility, Nondetection, and multiple Fireballs, then it will be a much tougher encounter than against a sorcerer found in a 50 foot wide dungeon room.

In these situations, it is appropriate to grant higher CR.

BTW, were those paladins using non-core stuff? If they were wearing Rhino Hide armor, for instance, then perhaps the problem lies there.

 

[Arnix]

The paladin's special mount is one of their class features. Thus, it is already figured into the CR for a paladin.

A paladin WITHOUT his special mount (at a mount usable level) shoudl be of lower CR, since h does not have access to all fo his class features.

 

[Christian]

For both the paladin and the druid, the mount/companion is figured into their CR's. It has to be-otherwise, the PC paladin and druid would be overpowered compared to their fighter & cleric counterparts, and they're not.

Now, there are reasonable circumstance modifiers one could give. This is particularly the case in the druid situation. If he had a dire bear companion with HD equal to the druid's level, then the party had to have been facing the druid on his home turf. That is easily worth a 50% or possibly even 100% XP bonus ... Likewise, if they're meeting the paladins in terrain that is well suited to mounted tactics, that should provide a situational bonus as well.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

For both the paladin and the druid, the mount/companion is figured into their CR's. It has to be-otherwise, the PC paladin and druid would be overpowered compared to their fighter & cleric counterparts, and they're not.

Now, there are reasonable circumstance modifiers one could give. This is particularly the case in the druid situation. If he had a dire bear companion with HD equal to the druid's level, then the party had to have been facing the druid on his home turf. That is easily worth a 50% or possibly even 100% XP bonus ... Likewise, if they're meeting the paladins in terrain that is well suited to mounted tactics, that should provide a situational bonus as well.

Agreed.

The mount and the companion are inherent abilities of class, so the by the book answer is no extra experience. However it is perfectly reasonable to fudge things a notch for a battlefield favorable to the enemy or a home turf (dis)advantage.

Do NOT give any bonus xp if the conflict could conceivably have been avoided or delayed by the PCs onto a more even locale. If they are sloppy and the battle is extra tough due to their own carelessness, they deserve no extra reward.