Craft overlapping?

[Water Bob]

OK, let's look at this, step by step. Either I'm doing it wrong, or something is out of whack and not understood by all.

I'll use the D&D rule since most of you don't have the Conan RPG to refer to.

I'll use the rule, step by step, right out of the 3.5 Player's Handbook (instructions start at the bottom of pg. 70). You show me what I'm doing wrong.




STEP 1: FIND THE COST OF THE ITEM IN SILVER PIECES.

We want to make a dagger. The dagger costs 2 gp, which means the dagger costs 20 sp.



STEP 2: FIND THE DC TO MAKE THE ITEM.

From the table in the book, a dagger is a Simple weapon, therefore it's a DC 12 to make this item.


STEP 3: PAY FOR THE COST OF RAW MATERIALS.

OK, the dagger costs 20 sp. Raw Materials is 1/3 of that price, so the raw materials for the dagger is 6 sp (drop fractions as per normal d20 rules).


STEP 4: MAKE CRAFT CHECK REPRESENTING ONE WEEK'S WORK.

Simple enough. Roll a d20 and get an 18. Add +8 for Caelis' skill, for a total of 26. The check is successful because we've rolled higher than the DC 12.

Our smith: Caelis with Craft (Weaponsmith) +8




SUCCESS!

If the check succeeds, we multiply the total of the check by the DC. That's 26 x 12 = 312. (We'll call that 312 Production).

If Production is equal to or greater than the cost of the item in silver pieces, then the item is complete in a week. Since 312 is greater than 20, the dagger is certainly completed in a week.



REDUCED MANUFACTURING TIME.

The rule says, on pg. 71 of the 3.5 PHB, that if Production is twice the item cost, then construction time is halved. If Production is three times the cost, then construction time is reduced to one third. If Production time is four times the cost, then construction time is one fourth the usual.

312 / 20 = 15 (drop fractions).

This means that construction time is 1/15 of a week.

Assuming an 8 hour work day and 5 day work week, that's 40 hours / 15 = 2 hours (drop fractions).

So, these rules are saying that a dagger can be made in 2 hours by this smith (who has a decent skill at +8).





Right?

I did all that correctly?

It seems incredible to me that a dagger can be made that quickly, if we're starting from scratch and not using an assembly line.

We've got to carve the hilt, then maybe wrap the hilt in leather. We've got to make the blade, shape it, cool it, then sharpen it. We've got to attached the handle to the blade. Maybe put on a cross-guard.

And, maybe we're making a simple leather sheath to go along with it.

All of that in 2 hours?

 

[Ashtagon]

(who has a decent skill at +8).

Poor starting assumption. +8 would be about right for an established professional smithy in his workshop. Much higher than that, and by realistic analysis standards, you are looking at dedicated master craftsmen famous throughout the province, if not the nation. Frankly, if a professional smithy can't do that dagger in 2 hours, he's doing it wrong.



And a roll of 18 is a pretty high assumption for dice rolls.

(See also the Alexandrian article)

 

[Loonook]

OK, let's look at this, step by step. Either I'm doing it wrong, or something is out of whack and not understood by all.

I'll use the D&D rule since most of you don't have the Conan RPG to refer to.

/snip

I did all that correctly?

And, maybe we're making a simple leather sheath to go along with it.

All of that in 2 hours?

Let me get this straight... Your complaint is that, if an individual specifically built just to forge (Int 12, Skill Focus [Weaponsmithing], 4 ranks) rolls his result (rather than taking 10 and reliably making 10 daggers/week), he can create 3.12 gp/day or 31.2 gp/week. Of course this occurs 10% of the time he rolls at maximum...

Per your own discussions above 2nd level will be your maximum for basic NPCs he'll top out at 15% chance of this happening (or 25% if you have him able to be Aided in your setting). So a smith at 2nd level without any other benefits has a 15% chance to fail the check outright, a 15% chance to succeed at your rate, and a 35% chance, if passing, to make less money than taking 10.

In this case, taking 10 is not only logical to save the hassle but probably what the smith is going to opt to... Of course if you wish to prevent him from taking 10 be my guest... The guy will have a rough time creating at a forge.

Your other assumption is that a smith in D&D has a 5 day workweek at 8 hours a day. Before the Modern Age (and even now for actual smiths) 6 day 12 hour work weeks were common, bringing your assumptive 15 daggers/week takes almost double your time allotted.

Poor starting assumption. +8 would be about right for an established professional smithy in his workshop. Much higher than that, and by realistic analysis standards, you are looking at dedicated master craftsmen famous throughout the province, if not the nation. Frankly, if a professional smithy can't do that dagger in 2 hours, he's doing it wrong.



And a roll of 18 is a pretty high assumption for dice rolls.

(See also the Alexandrian article)

So a Smith who specifically smiths, has trained from the time he could pump a bellows... Doesn't have skill focus? I mean, Expert 1 gives you a +8 to the skill check (of course including SF:Weaponsmith). So an actual result of 18 is not assumptive at all... A roll of 18 is pretty high, but addressed above.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Ashtagon]

So a Smith who specifically smiths, has trained from the time he could pump a bellows... Doesn't have skill focus? I mean, Expert 1 gives you a +8 to the skill check (of course including SF:Weaponsmith). So an actual result of 18 is not assumptive at all... A roll of 18 is pretty high, but addressed above.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

A typical expert NPC smith will probably have Skill Focus (Craft/whatever his speciality is) for +3, Intelligence 13 for +1, and 4 ranks for +4 = +8 total.

Yeah, by RAW, about 95% and up of NPCs are 1st level. Chances of Joe Random Blacksmith being exceptional in this regard are fairly low. This is as good as a competent smithy gets. Maybe and as much as +4 in a large city if he lucks out and gets to high mundane levels.

Basically, NPCs are a bit crap.

 

[Water Bob]

The character is the 3rd level Barbarian PC from my own campaign. No, he doesn't have skill focus.

Yes, I think it's near impossbile to make a dagger in two hours, if you're making that dagger from scratch by carving/polishing/working the handle, casting/forging the blade, then putting it all together, sharpening it, and tooling a leather scabbard to go with it (which is usually assumed to go with an item when purchased).

I think that's a bit much to do in one day, much less two days.

I think I'm leaning towards a minimum of 2 days, now, per item, no matter how high the roll.

 

[Loonook]

The character is the 3rd level Barbarian PC from my own campaign. No, he doesn't have skill focus.

Yes, I think it's near impossbile to make a dagger in two hours, if you're making that dagger from scratch by carving/polishing/working the handle, casting/forging the blade, then putting it all together, sharpening it, and tooling a leather scabbard to go with it (which is usually assumed to go with an item when purchased).

I think that's a bit much to do in one day, much less two days.

I think I'm leaning towards a minimum of 2 days, now, per item, no matter how high the roll.

So I did all of your math and show it doesn't take 2 hours... Did you read the post?

Adding artificial requirements destroys crafting. Per your rules anything takes 1 day to make? Have fun trying to outfit your legions... You'll need 50 laborers going for 100 days?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Water Bob]

So I did all of your math and show it doesn't take 2 hours... Did you read the post?

I read it, but I don't think you're following the rules correctly.

If your DC x check = 312. And, the item you're making costs 20 sp. All it means is that you will make that item in 1/15th of a week (312 / 20 = 15).

1/15th of a week is a few hours, no matter how much time you use for the work week (I prefer 12 days and 7 days of work).

Even with that longer work schedule, it only takes 5 hours to make a dagger.

Crom! How fast is this smith making stuff!? Can he make a nail in a mili-second? An iron pan in a minute? Becuase the dagger is only taking a few hours.





Let's look at an average smith making a dagger.

1st level. Craft (Weaponsmith +4) INT 10.

Taking 10, his roll is 14.

14 x 12 = 168

168/20 = 8

This average joe can make a dagger in 1/8th of a week, which is about 10 hours (using the 12 hr/7 day work week).

If he rolls his max, he's making the dagger in 1/14th of a week, which is about 6 hours.

His worst roll is an 8, giving him a total check of 12. And, this has him making the dagger in 1/7th of a work week, which is 1 day (or 12 hours.)

So....with these rules and a very average smith, a dagger takes 6-12 hours to make.

That's pretty quick.

 

[Water Bob]

Steps in making a dagger...

1) Smelt iron ore to extract iron metal or wrought iron

2) Hammer, pound , forge, or pour the metal into the desired shape

3) Carbonize, or alloy the iron with carbon by heating both to encase with steel (hammer again)

4) Quench, or cool, the hot steel quickly to harden

5) Temper the steel by reheating at a lower temperature to make less brittle


Do all that, then make a hilt, assemble it all, polish and sharpen...in a few hours?

I don't buy it.

 

[Loonook]

Steps in making a dagger...

1) Smelt iron ore to extract iron metal or wrought iron

2) Hammer, pound , forge, or pour the metal into the desired shape

3) Carbonize, or alloy the iron with carbon by heating both to encase with steel (hammer again)

4) Quench, or cool, the hot steel quickly to harden

5) Temper the steel by reheating at a lower temperature to make less brittle


Do all that, then make a hilt, assemble it all, polish and sharpen...in a few hours?

I don't buy it.

And that is you problem.

The iron being used is not being smelted, carbonized, quenched, etc. The smith is supplying 1/3 of the raw material needed. This is most likely represented as iron ingots that are being extrapolated for the purpose. Most blacksmiths did not have the equipment or time to smelt their iron.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Water Bob]

And that is you problem.

I've been looking for medieval crafting times, and I saw one site that said it could take a couple of days.

I'm looking for a more definitive source, though.