Craft/Profession

[med stud]

Ding!



Smithing is only as mundane as you make it out to be. Same with brewing.

Smithing and brewing is so mundane that you can do it in real life for real benefits. When it comes to RPGs and CRPGs I want to do things that I can't do in real life. If I would spend two hours in a game smithing horse shoes, it would be a waste of time.

Multiple books. Compartmentalize the system. At that point, it'd be modular, and there'd be no reason not to.

I don't disagree with you here.

The PCs are special snowflakes only insofar as they are controlled by players and not the DM. They do not stand out in the world, unless they are of significant enough power to warrant such.

In your opinion it is so. In my opinion, I like it more when the PCs are special people whose destiny is above the average Joe. They may be weaker than lots of NPCs, but they are always more important.

Protagonization is lame.

Haha, a mature answer that really sold me on your point .

That sounds like treating the PCs like special snowflakes.

Yes, that's because I think it's a good thing. Look at the ancient myths, the protagonists weren't Arklos the Cabbage Farmer who slayed some satyrs and got to level 2. They were chosen by the gods and they were essentially supermen. Same thing with the Norse myths, the protagonists were at least nobles. That's what I'm going for, I'm not into fantasy RPGs to emulate 20th century humanism.

 

[hong]

If you have a point, go ahead and assume I answer this in whatever fashion helps you make your point, so we can move on.

The point, oh-he-who-believes-elves-are-real, is that D&D has always been a game about killing things and taking their stuff. Just because 3E threw in a few sops to the s*mul*tionists does not change that; in fact, it accentuated it if anything. Compare the sparse treatment that Craft and Profession got, to the pages of crunch devoted to the promulgation of violence.

If anything, you are BETTER OFF in 4E because by default, everyone has Craft and Profession. Their bonus is (stat bonus) + (level/2). Thus noone will be gimped when it comes to noncombat interaction, just because they happen to be good at violence.

The only downside is the removal of the option to create someone who is specialised in Craft/ Profession, while being sucky at the core function of killing things and taking their stuff. This is ignorable in the greater scheme of things.

Or... did he?

Yes. Yes, he did.

 

[GnomeWorks]

It goes back to the mini-game issue you mentioned. It might be an interesting diversion, but it is not core to most standard D&D games. In fact, on the subject of missing rule sub-systems, I would find mass combat rules or rules for running a business/organization/country to be more useful than a sub-system for Craft and Profession.

Remove all methods of gaining plus'd items. Make Craft the only way to attain plus'd items, and item enhancements.

Useful yet?

I don't want to be the guy who makes stuff for other people. I may be the glory hog, but I want to be the hero everyone cheers to for saving their lives, not the guy in the back of the room handing out drinks. It's not about the mechanics, it's about the prestige that goes with it.

That's a personal preference, and there's not really much that I can say other than - fair enough.

But you should at least acknowledge that some people enjoy playing that kind of support. I absolutely love WoW's crafting system, and made a toon specifically for maxing out engineering (I even went so far as to try to ignore all my class abilities, and just use engineering stuff). I think the game could handle supporting that, if at least marginally.

Maybe it is because I was raised as a Christian before I became atheist, or you have played to much Exalted, but _deities_ look, act and feel different very different to me. (I could go on and say that there is a similarity - neither the 4E 1st level fighter nor deities exist, but this will just break board policies...)

It may have been a slight exaggeration on my part.

 

[med stud]

I disagree. No amount of rules could make crafting interesting. It's just not why I play the game.

Same reason I have tried, and gotten bored quickly with the crafting rules in Everquest, Everquest 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Neverwinter Nights, Neverwinter Nights 2, World of Warcraft, and City of Heroes. Most of them spent a lot of time to try and make crafting fun. Some even made patches in order to completely overhaul crafting and I played them before AND after the overhaul.

I don't want to be the guy who makes stuff for other people. I may be the glory hog, but I want to be the hero everyone cheers to for saving their lives, not the guy in the back of the room handing out drinks. It's not about the mechanics, it's about the prestige that goes with it.

I agree with you, I'm the same. Mostly because making things and doing regular professions is what I do in everyday life, not only that, but I think my job is much more fun and interesting than what a brewer or a blacksmith does for a living. So why would I spend time to imagine that I do a work I wouldn't do if I was payed twice my present salary?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Remove all methods of gaining plus'd items. Make Craft the only way to attain plus'd items, and item enhancements.

Useful yet?

Interesting yet?

 

[GnomeWorks]

Smithing and brewing is so mundane that you can do it in real life for real benefits. When it comes to RPGs and CRPGs I want to do things that I can't do in real life. If I would spend two hours in a game smithing horse shoes, it would be a waste of time.

It's a fantasy game. Making horseshoes - or just being a blacksmith, in general - is not something I can do; so it is not unreasonable for me to want to play a character who can do that. I think it is neat, and I think it would be neat to play a character who could do that.

Is that a bit mundane? Sure. But there's nothing wrong with the mundane. It makes the fantastic elements of D&D that much more... fantastical.

I don't disagree with you here.

Huzzah!

In your opinion it is so. In my opinion, I like it more when the PCs are special people whose destiny is above the average Joe. They may be weaker than lots of NPCs, but they are always more important.

Sometimes, sure, that's alright. But after awhile, that becomes really trite.

Haha, a mature answer that really sold me on your point .

I know, right? That's because it is an awesome point.

Yes, that's because I think it's a good thing. Look at the ancient myths, the protagonists weren't Arklos the Cabbage Farmer who slayed some satyrs and got to level 2. They were chosen by the gods and they were essentially supermen. Same thing with the Norse myths, the protagonists were at least nobles. That's what I'm going for, I'm not into fantasy RPGs to emulate 20th century humanism.

Superman is the lamest superhero evar.

If you want to emulate myths and such, that's cool, your style and mine differ, both are valid. It is not so much an issue when a game (as in, the DM and the players) treat the PCs as special snowflakes; it's when the system does it that irks me.

 

[Toras]

While I do certainly hope that for a version of rituals that would closely that would draw upon a smith's skill and exotic components to craft unique and interesting items in a reasonably balanced way.

You know what is boring, crafting horseshoes. You know what isn't, at least in my opinion, forging a sword of legend from steel drawn from the darkest heart of a mad earth elemental and cooled in the tears on an asimon, and then riding into battle to butcher demons. That seems neat for me.

And for those who find crafting boring, let me ask about slightly more combat related topics. What about engineering, combat and otherwise? Say we want to build a terbuchet or other siege weapons. What about military tactics and manuvering? Say the characters need to defend a town from marading monsters, but don't know where they are? Can they build defenses?

What about gnomish inventions or other slightly higher bits of science? What if a character wants to make nonmagical devices?

 

[hong]

Is that a bit mundane? Sure. But there's nothing wrong with the mundane. It makes the fantastic elements of D&D that much more... fantastical.

That's why the extras and scenery are as important as the main actors.

 

[GnomeWorks]

The point, oh-he-who-believes-elves-are-real, is that D&D has always been a game about killing things and taking their stuff. Just because 3E threw in a few sops to the s*mul*tionists does not change that; in fact, it accentuated it if anything. Compare the sparse treatment that Craft and Profession got, to the pages of crunch devoted to the promulgation of violence.

If anything, you are BETTER OFF in 4E because by default, everyone has Craft and Profession. Their bonus is (stat bonus) + (level/2). Thus noone will be gimped when it comes to noncombat interaction, just because they happen to be good at violence.

The only downside is the removal of the option to create someone who is specialised in Craft/ Profession, while being sucky at the core function of killing things and taking their stuff. This is ignorable in the greater scheme of things.

The killing of dudes and taking of their stuff does not have to be the core function of the game. It can be a core function, but it does not have to be the be-all and end-all of the game. If it was, then why are you playing D&D, when Gauntlet or WoW offer much faster, more graphic alternatives?

Everyone being good at craft and profession kills off any kind of worldbuilding and versimilitude. You don't need training to make anything, you just need to kill enough things. Because that's totally sensical </sarcasm>.

I do not disagree that 3.5 did a rather crap job at presenting a crafting system; I won't argue that. But it was a step in the right direction.

Yes. Yes, he did.

Drat.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Interesting yet?

Throw in the hunt for materials to work with. You need to gather or purchase iron and wood and such to make mundane items, while more fantastical items require more fantastical materials: a weapon that freezes and deals cold damage requires an alchemical paste made from flowers that only grow in the heart of winter in the far north, etc etc.