Craft question

[der_kluge]

Guys, isn't it just possible that the smith is simply modifying other pieces he just had lying around? I mean, perhaps when the guy says that he can create it in 3 weeks, he's basing that off the fact that he's already got pieces to an existing suit laying around that he only needs to modify.

Let's not assume that he's creating the thing from scratch.

 

[Elodan]

Guys, isn't it just possible that the smith is simply modifying other pieces he just had lying around? I mean, perhaps when the guy says that he can create it in 3 weeks, he's basing that off the fact that he's already got pieces to an existing suit laying around that he only needs to modify.

Let's not assume that he's creating the thing from scratch.

We haven't run a steady (by which I mean more than 3 months) 3.5/3.0 game in a long time. This is actually the first time we've run into non-magic item crafting.

The DM had the smithy/armorer make the offer and then we looked up the craft rules. When we saw it would take as long as we thought it would, the DM made an spot ruling and we were going to research furthur. After a couple of group e-mails. He then came back with saying that the armorer wouldn't have made the offer if he couldn't complete it rather quickly so he must have some stuff lying around.

My question was more about our interpretation of the craft rules and if people though the time to create was out of whack. If people thought it was out of whack, what modifications to the rule did they make.

Thanks for all the answers. It's been enlightening. Feel free to keep the discussion going.

 

[Conaill]

A bit farther off-topic, but the Craft rules aren't the only place where the D&D economic model is way off. Essentially, all these prices and rates were just picked ad-hoc to get a playable system, and aren't intended to make any economic sense (in fact, many are inherited from the original OD&D).

One easy fix which goes some way towards solving a number of inconsistencies is to increase all the (non-magical) wages by a factor or 5 or so. Which conveniently agrees with the suggested increase in crafting speed as well.

In that case, an untrained hireling would make 5 sp per day, enough to be able to afford a mug of ale in the local inn (4 cp), and maybe even an occasional poor meal there (1 sp). True, medieval reality is that a large proportion of the population was living near starvation levels, but in standadr D&D's fantasy world, we need some common rabble to frequent the inns you find everywhere.

 

[Caliban]

Can you ?

Yes, you can.

I see an adverse result if you miss by 5 or more.

Has no effect on taking 10.

But the rule may apply only for taking 20 ? Must check.

Yup, it only applies to taking 20.

Then again, can you assume that a artisan working on 500 gp of raw material is under no pressure when a mishandling can cost him 250 gp ?

Yes you can. People who work with expensive materials everyday stop being intimidated by them pretty quickly.

 

[Antoine]

Yes you can. People who work with expensive materials everyday stop being intimidated by them pretty quickly.

Sounds reasonnable.

Nevertheless, regarding the case of a full plate, I'm ditrubed by the fact that an artisan with a skill of +8 (meaning any 1st level expert, even commoner wth the right feats), can routinely engage in the crafting of the most complex suit of armor D&D technology allows.

I'd rather consider it the task of higher level dedicated experts.

 

[hong]

Sounds reasonnable.

Nevertheless, regarding the case of a full plate, I'm ditrubed by the fact that an artisan with a skill of +8 (meaning any 1st level expert, even commoner wth the right feats), can routinely engage in the crafting of the most complex suit of armor D&D technology allows.

I'd rather consider it the task of higher level dedicated experts.

D&D assumes that the bulk of humanity is 1st or 2nd level. This is entirely in keeping with that assumption. Note that the prevalence of people with a +8 in Craft can be as rare as you like.

 

[Antoine]

D&D assumes that the bulk of humanity is 1st or 2nd level.

It's just I don't assume state of art armor is the routine task of the bulk of humanity.

 

[hong]

It's just I don't assume state of art armor is the routine task of the bulk of humanity.

People who have +8 to Craft (armoursmithing) are not, by any means, the "bulk of humanity".

 

[Antoine]

People who have +8 to Craft (armoursmithing) are not, by any means, the "bulk of humanity".

Ok, then. Let's reformulate.

IMC, most human artisans with a specialty generating a substansial income, such as armoursmiths or weaponsmiths compared to blacksmiths, are likely to be experts or very dedicated commoners, aquiring the feat Skill Focus in an ealry stage of their career. 3 or 4 ranks at 1st level + Skill Focus in the craft you practice every non festival day of the year + an intelligence score around 11 (standart array) or 13 (non-elite array) : that's a quick +6 to +8 bonus.

IMC, most low-level armoursmiths (1st or so), are engaged in the most common tasks of their trade : usually crafting mail. As they mature, they probably start to assume the task of completing whole armor. Then, advancing in their trade, they engage in the more diffucult task of crafting heavy armors with complex articulations, i.e. banded, plate mail, full plate armor.

This evolution is, IMHO, can pretty much be described as aquiring experience, which happens, in D&D, to turn those armoursmiths into higher level Commoners or Experts.

Like you stated : the bulk of humanity is probably around 1st or 2nd level.
But D&D rules, notably with the city population generator, assume we encounter a fair number of high level Commoner or Experts (in many cases, a Commoner in the highest-level invidual of a given town).

I just suggest that the more complicated tasks, such as the making of a full plate armor compared to that of a chain mail, is likely to be the trade of the most advanced individuals. I happen to think these higher level commoners and experts are the crafters and traders of the most advanced and profitable businesses around.

Especially when heavy guild systems, such as those described in most D&D settings, tend to protect and restrain that business to specific and advantaged groups of individuals.

 

[Tatsukun]

I know what you mean about the silly craft rules. I am now playing a PC who spent FIVE YEARS making a suit of armor. We had to make it all before we started playing (IE, it's in his history, we didn't roleplay any of it).

-Tatsu