craft wand or craft wonderous item?

[Storm Raven]

A 5th level wizard with craft wondrous item can only make +2 bracers of armor, not really worth it when he can just cast mage armor and get +4.

The bracers are always on (unlike Mage Armor) and don't take up a spell slot, and at low levels, even a 1st level spell slot is valuable.

He isn't going to be making headbands of intellect until level 13 or so because he will need to know legend lore.

True. One reasonable house rule is to allow the spells Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom and Eagle's Splendor to serve as prerequisites for the Headband of Intellect, Periapt of Wisdom and Cloak of Charisma (respectively). That is a house rule though, so not always an option.

A 5th level wizard is only gonna be able to make a cloak of resistance +1 since you need 3 caster levels per +.

And a +1 bonus to all saves for low cost is not valuable?

Boccobs is nice and all though so I will give you that one.

Exceptionally nice is a better description.

As for the amulet of natural armor, see the cloak of resistance above and to actually find a willing druid to sit with you for a few days and have that spell prepared and then having to pay them for their time and all barely makes it worth it, least at low levels.

Unless you have a druid in the party, or someone else who could cast barkskin (isn't it on one of the Cleric domain lists)?

An amulet of health, sure if the wizard knows endurance and all I'll give you that one cuz an extra 5hp or so is always good.

For a wizard an extra 5 hit points may represent a 20% increase to his total, even at 5th level.

As for the other ability enhancing items, I don't really see the point at such a low level for only a +2 to the ability score. The higher bonus ones are just too expensive to create at such a low level.

A +2 Belt of Endurance gives a 5th level wizard 5 hit points, a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves, and increases his Concentration skill checks by +1. +2 Gloves of Dexterity increases his initiative by +1, his AC by +1 and his ranged attack bonus by +1. These things are certainly very valuable.

Let's not forget that crafting items takes money and time and experience. Yes I know 1/25 and half price and all that isn't bad but hey, those 40exp and 500gp for those 1000gp items add up, and that's only if you are making small items.

That is why I said "when you can", choosing which items to agree to make, and which are too expensive and difficult. Crafting wands is also costly, and they get used up eventually. Your Belt of Endurance never runs out of charges.

I would agree also, but as the person stated in the original post they were just wondering which feat to get now at 5th level, craft wand or wondrous item. They also stated that they would most likely be picking the other feat up also at a later date. Craft wand is a much better feat for a 5th level wizard then craft wondrous item is because of what you are limited to making with craft wondrous item at a low level.

Just based on what a 5th level wizard could cast himself:

Bracers of Armor +2 2,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +1 500 gp
Amulet of Health +2 2,000 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2 2,000 gp
Blessed Book 4,750 gp

That's a total of 11,250 gp worth of equipment, obviously high for a 5th level character, but if I recall correctly, not ridiculously so (I don't have my DMG handy, I can't pull out the treasure level appropriate for this level, but even if it is half this, he could afford most everything except the Blessed Book).

His base armor class increases by +3 over his normal, his initiative goes up by +1, his Fortitude and Reflex saves increase by +2, Will saves go up by +1, he has 5 extra hit points (giving his familiar 2 extra hit points) his ranged attack bonus (for ranged touch spells) goes up by +1, and his Dexterity and Constitution based skills are all more effective, plus he can scribe spells into his spellbook for free.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It makes sense and is balanced as long as DMs stick to the core items detailed in the rulebooks. If the only way to get an item with a deflection AC bonus (more than 1), energy resistance, or a wish, is in a ring, then Forge Ring looks pretty nice. That's the way the rules were balanced in the first place.

Well, I'd agree *but*

Rings have a value of 2000gp up to 200,000gp
staffs have a value of 6,500 up to 200,000gp
wondrous items have a value of 25gp up to 175,000

Given that only the rings of elemental power, the staff of power and the staff of passage exceed the maximum value of items that can be created with wondrous items...

And to turn your own argument against itself - how many unique features could you name which are available only with create wonderous item? I would bet that there are *at least* triple the amount. For starters... items which permanently increase an attribute? items which give an enhancement bonus to an attribute? various extradimensional spaces? there are so many too choose from!


The very fact that there are rings of climbing (cost 2000, prereq climb 5 ranks, caster level "5th" ) seems strange. Why should someone need to be 12th level to get the feat to forge one of these I wonder? Or feather fall, with caster level 1st, prereq feather fall, 2200? Overly powerful?

 

[dcollins]

Rings have a value of 2000gp up to 200,000gp
staffs have a value of 6,500 up to 200,000gp
wondrous items have a value of 25gp up to 175,000

I don't think this is relevant. You think it is, but only because you're predisposed to your home-brewed "craft items by valuation" feats. There's no necessity for a craft-items feat to provide a particular range of valuation.

What is necessary for balance reasons is that each feat do something special that no other feat does. Craft Armor gives you armor bonuses and special protections. Craft Wondrous Items gives you ability enhancements, haste items, natural armor, and many other nice things. Forge Ring gives you good deflection bonuses, energy resistance, wishes, etc. If you want the whole ball of wax, you need to take all of these feats -- in that way, it's balanced, regardless of relative caster levels or price valuations.

 

[Finglas]

One thing, just took a quick look at the SRD to make sure--all wondrous items have a minimum caster level, and it's rarely (but occasionally) less than 5th level. The "stat-bumping" items like Gloves of Dex have minimums of at least 8th level, so that kind of balances things out. You might want to check the SRD here: http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd
before you decide which feat to take at which level.

 

[Marshall]

One thing, just took a quick look at the SRD to make sure--all wondrous items have a minimum caster level, and it's rarely (but occasionally) less than 5th level. The "stat-bumping" items like Gloves of Dex have minimums of at least 8th level, so that kind of balances things out. You might want to check the SRD here: http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd
before you decide which feat to take at which level.

The caster level entry is NOT a minimum needed to create an item. Its supposed to be there just to indicate what the "average" CL of this type of item is.

See a bajillion other threads on this subject.....Tho it seems to have died recently.....

 

[Nail]

There's no necessity for a craft-items feat to provide a particular range of valuation.

What is necessary for balance reasons is that each feat do something special that no other feat does.

FWIW, I agree. The problem is that it's not immediately obvious from the core rules how Forge Ring does things differently than Craft Wondrous Items. Seems like they could have the same kind of magic (deflection, luck, etc.)

If you take the magic itme creation system apart (going further than even the chart in T&B), I think it starts to make more sense. Look at the types of activation methods and how many times you can use the items. Therein lies the key difference.

For example, potions are just one-use, use activated "Wondrous Items", but with half the wondrous item cost. Similarly, you could make a "staff" with Craft Wondrous Item, but it would cost (at least) double the staff price. Moreover, a staff has an "effective slot", whereas a wondrous item does not unless it is a boot, cloak, hat, etc. This gives the pseudo-staff created with the wondrous item feat an even higher cost.

So, the (only) real advantage to other non-wondrous item feats is the lower cost....unless you pull a Plane Sailing and house rule a split (something that's, IMHO, not necessary).

 

[Zenon]

The caster level entry is NOT a minimum needed to create an item. Its supposed to be there just to indicate what the "average" CL of this type of item is.

Here's some confirmation on the above from Sean K. Reynolds:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/magicitemcreation.htm

Caster Level: The caster level of a magic item is the default caster level of a "found" item of this type (such as in a treasure hoard). It determines what caster level the effects of the item has (if any) and how difficult it is to affect the item with a dispel magic spell. All effects in a magic item should normally have the same caster level for simplicity's sake, but it is acceptable to create an item with effects at different caster levels (only one caster level should be listed here).
Prerequisites: The feats, spells, and other criteria to make the item are listed here. Feats are listed first, spells are listed second and in alphabetical order, and other criteria (such as "creator must be an elf" for boots of elvenkind) last.
Caster level is not a prerequisite unless it is listed after the Prerequisite header. As mentioned above, the caster level is the default caster level of a "found" item. A pearl of power in the DMG has a caster level of 17, but its prerequisites are "Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled." This means that a typical "found" 1st-level pearl of power has a caster level of 17 (it's hard to dispel) but there is no reason why a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item can't make a 1st-level pearl of power.

 

[IceBear]

I'd say take Craft Wondrous Item if your DM allows it, since it is a TGTBT feat

In my campaign I broke it down into

Craft Minor Item (value less than 7,500gp)
Craft Major Item (value 7500 - 29,000gp)
Craft Legendary Item (value 30,000gp+ )

Each one is a prereq for the next.

Otherwise, frankly, why limit create staff and forge ring to 12th+ level when you can create more powerful items with a feat you can take easily at 3rd?

Cheers

Question - are you saying you replaced ALL the item creation feats with these three or you replaced Craft Wondrous Item with these three, or something else entirely

IceBear

 

[dcollins]

The caster level entry is NOT a minimum needed to create an item. Its supposed to be there just to indicate what the "average" CL of this type of item is.

See a bajillion other threads on this subject.....Tho it seems to have died recently.....

Except that it's utterly contradicted by the rulebooks themselves. See here for more detail: www.superdan.net/dndfaq2.html

 

[IceBear]

Good reading dcollins. Things to mull over.

IceBear