Creating a better two weapon fighter

[The Souljourner]

I have a human Fighter 2/Rogue 2 who just jumped to 6th level from a huge fight (party + 5 named NPCs + 140 militia vs 400 orcs + red dragon). I'm trying to make my character more effective in combat, because I'm one of two melee combatants in our party, and the other one is a strong greatsword wielding ranger. My schtick all along has been TWF, and I'd like to stick with it, if possible. All suggestions welcome, even stuff like "try to convince your DM to let you get TWF for free" (I actually tried this).

How can I make TWF be anything better than third fiddle?

Here's the character at 4th level:

Human Fighter 2/Rogue 2
Str 14
Dex 16 (includes +1 from 4th level)
Con 12
Int 18 (includes +4 inherent bonus... don't ask)
Wis 15 (includes +3 inherent bonus... see above)
Cha 9

Feats:
Two weapon fighting
Weapon Focus: Shortsword
Two Weapon Defense
Dodge
Expertise

The original plan was to go Dervish (thus, dodge), because it's cool. (I took WF: shortsword before complete warrior came out). Expertise is because I need all the help I can get staying alive. Thinking swashbuckler for adding intelligence bonus to damage.

Thoughts?

-The Souljourner

 

[cdsaint]

Mobility, you need it anyway for Dervish, and it's worthwhile in itself.
Weapon specialization. If you're going the TWF route with shortswords it's really worthwhile.

I just realized that WF shortsword won't get you into Dervish because they aren't slashing weapons. Check with your dm to see if you can change WF to scimitar, or handaxe. If you go scimitar be sure to pick up improved critical.

Chris

 

[Tar-Edhel]

You pretty much nailed it.

Try to convince your DM to change the weapon focus to scimitar. (Hey! You said we could! )
Take 3 levels of swahbuckler. You'll get weapon finesse (good synergy with Slashing blades from Dervish that treats scimitar as light weapons)
Then go Dervish

Mobility as 6th level feat
Imp Crit (Scimitar) at 9th (F2/R2/Sw3/De2) or Improved 2WF if you increase Dex at 8th

That should tip the scale back in your favor

 

[The Souljourner]

Yeah, I know about slashing for dervish, it's why I qualified the WF: shortsword. The annoying thing about dervish is that it kinda requires WF: scimitar, and gives you the ability to wield two scimitars as if they're light weapons... but up until then, you can't use scimitars with two weapon fighting without taking *another* -2 to hit. Chickens and eggs, man.

One option is to have the DM rule shortswords as piercing or slashing, like daggers. I mean, come on, you can slash with a dagger, but not a shortsword? Makes no sense. That would get around the shortsword problem... of course, it's wasting one of the best abilities of the class... A better option is to see if the DM will switch WF to scimitar and just use shortswords until then. Not like +1 to hit is a big deal anyway.

Here are my options:

Rogue 2/Fighter 4 (specialization)
Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 2 (weapon finesse, 1 level to insightful strike)
... something else?

-The Souljourner

 

[Tar-Edhel]

Yeah, I know about slashing for dervish, it's why I qualified the WF: shortsword. The annoying thing about dervish is that it kinda requires WF: scimitar, and gives you the ability to wield two scimitars as if they're light weapons... but up until then, you can't use scimitars with two weapon fighting without taking *another* -2 to hit. Chickens and eggs, man.

Use a short sword in the meantime Maybe you already have a magical one. It will serve until you get Slashing Blades.

And if you go Swashbuckler, don't stop after 2 levels: you get your Int bonus to damage at 3rd. +4 is nothing to sneeze at

 

[The Souljourner]

Yes, if I went swashbuckler 2 I would definitely also go for the third... the extra damage is definitely what I'm looking for. I guess swashbuckler 2, then 3, then dervish 1.

You know, I just realized I could use a scimitar in my main hand and a shortsword in the offhand.... it's such a foreign concept to use two different weapons

I guess we'll see if my DM will allow me to swap out weapon focus: shortsword for weapon focus: scimitar.

-The Souljourner

 

[Tatsukun]

For two weapon goodness, don't forget about armor spikes. You can TWF a great sword and armor spikes, or a bastard sword and armor spikes (and still have a shield).

Since the other guy already has a great sword, I'd go with a falchion of something similar if you want to go this route.

Just an idea

-T

 

[Thanee]

Well, to make TWF effective in damage dealing you need ways to up your damage per hit, like more sneak attack, weapon specialization, favored enemy (2 ranger levels?), rage (1 barbarian level?), elemental damage weapons, etc.

Power Attack is out, since it doesn't work with light weapons, obviously, and thus shouldn't work with the Dervish's scimitars either, as they are wielded as light weapons, which pretty much rules out Power Attack for that style IMHO. If you do that otherwise, obviously Power Attack will become a viable choice.

In fact, tho, I doubt you can match the damage of a power attacking greatsword-wielding warrior, but you should be able to come close at least with some d6 added (see above).

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Armor Spike TWF is silly.

 

[cdsaint]

Yeah, I know about slashing for dervish, it's why I qualified the WF: shortsword. The annoying thing about dervish is that it kinda requires WF: scimitar, and gives you the ability to wield two scimitars as if they're light weapons... but up until then, you can't use scimitars with two weapon fighting without taking *another* -2 to hit. Chickens and eggs, man.

One option is to have the DM rule shortswords as piercing or slashing, like daggers. I mean, come on, you can slash with a dagger, but not a shortsword? Makes no sense. That would get around the shortsword problem... of course, it's wasting one of the best abilities of the class... A better option is to see if the DM will switch WF to scimitar and just use shortswords until then. Not like +1 to hit is a big deal anyway.

Here are my options:

Rogue 2/Fighter 4 (specialization)
Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 2 (weapon finesse, 1 level to insightful strike)
... something else?

-The Souljourner

My Dervish (to be) has been using the two scimitars since we started the campaign. Of course we started at 3rd level, and he's a straight fighter build. After looking at things I've come to the conclusion that I should have skipped the whole TWF tree and gone with a Falchion (for crits) or a Greataxe (for big damage). I'm finding that I'm running out of feat slots. But even though I'm using 2 scimitars at -4 for each, I still hit reliably. I can't wait for 6th level though.

Chris

 

[The Souljourner]

I can't stomach using armor spikes and a two handed weapon. Just too cheesy, even for me. In my opinion, armor spikes should only be useable in a grapple.

I agree, Thanee, the key is adding non-strength damage to my attacks... sneak attack and specialization work, as does insightful strike. As it happens, I gained a +4 inherent bonus to intelligence due to a dm placed special fountain (gave an inherent bonus of 1d6-1, and drained that much times 100xp). So with my 18 int, it's a huge boon to get insightful strike. All of a sudden, I go from 1d6+2 and 1d6+1 to 1d6+6 and 1d6+5. Sweet.

I'm hoping that with insightful strike adding a big flat bonus to all attacks, it'll make me more of a force to be reckoned with.

One problem with the build - no feat to spend on improved two weapon fighting until 9th! Yuck! Stupid rogue level.... I also want improved two weapon defense... man... where do all the feats go? Oh yeah... two weapon fighting. Dammit.

-The Souljourner