Creating a d20 rule lite game ala C&C?

[Turanil]

I just got my copy of Castles & Crusades. Reading through it, it's obvious that it is indeed rule lite, and thus extremely easy to use. Especially it is extremely easy to DM. However, I am not convinced it is the game I would want to play, for it looks simplistic, and I dislike the total lack of skills and feats.

Now, many people seem to be appealed to a rule lite game. so I was wondering of houseruling a rule-lite d20 system with but a minimum of changes. I am especially interested in a rule-lite system for d20 Modern, since it has so many skills, talents, and feats, to keep track of. So, please post your comments and own suggestions. Would you like a rule-lite d20 system, what are the things that in your opinion slow down the game, what would be your suggestions of simplifications?

So, myself I suggest:

• Skills: Level Based Skill variant from Unearthed Arcana (p.81). That is: class skills are checked with 1d20 + modifier + level, while all other skills are checked at 1d20 + modifier. As such, very simple to use, no calculations, but characters nonetheless have skills.

• Bonus Skills: Characters get 2 (or 3) core skills. That is, these core skills are meant to be class skills during all of their levels, whatever may be their class. As such, it implements the fact you cannot buy ranks in non-class skills, and provides a little (yet easy) customization.

• Feats: Fewer feats. Basically feats are gained only when a character learns them, not automatically when they do get levels. From 2nd to 5th level they can know 1 feat, from 6th to 8th up to 2 feats, from 9th to 11th up to 2 feats, etc. Some PCs or NPCs will know their maximum allotment of feats, others not.

• Attacks of Opportunity: Attacks of opportunities are kepts for but a very few obvious circumstances (i.e.: when a foe turns back and flees, his opponent gets an attack of opportunity). Then, replace most attacks of opportunity with a bonus to hit to the normal attack. In most cases forget about it.

 

[Akrasia]

I just got my copy of Castles & Crusades. Reading through it, it's obvious that it is indeed rule lite, and thus extremely easy to use. Especially it is extremely easy to DM. However, I am not convinced it is the game I would want to play, for it looks simplistic, and I dislike the total lack of skills and feats.

Well Turanil, I disagree with your equation of "rules lite" with "simplistic" -- some rules lite systems can require more thought than games where everything is quantified for you! Afterall, the real world is quite uncertain

And I think it is quite easy to add skills and/or feats to C&C. (The philosophy appears to be to start with a "minimal" framework, onto which things can be added, as the group wishes, instead of starting with a complex framework that makes it tediously difficult to remove things from in order to arrive a "simpler" system...)

Those quibbles aside, I too would like a "rules-lite/medium" Modern system. So here are my thoughts on what you have stated ...

Now, many people seem to be appealed to a rule lite game. so I was wondering of houseruling a rule-lite d20 system with but a minimum of changes. I am especially interested in a rule-lite system for d20 Modern, since it has so many skills, talents, and feats, to keep track of. So, please post your comments and own suggestions. Would you like a rule-lite d20 system, what are the things that in your opinion slow down the game, what would be your suggestions of simplifications?

So, myself I suggest:

• Skills: Level Based Skill variant from Unearthed Arcana (p.81). That is: class skills are checked with 1d20 + modifier + level, while all other skills are checked at 1d20 + modifier. As such, very simple to use, no calculations, but characters nonetheless have skills.

• Bonus Skills: Characters get 2 (or 3) core skills. That is, these core skills are meant to be class skills during all of their levels, whatever may be their class. As such, it implements the fact you cannot buy ranks in non-class skills, and provides a little (yet easy) customization.

• Feats: Fewer feats. Basically feats are gained only when a character learns them, not automatically when they do get levels. From 2nd to 5th level they can know 1 feat, from 6th to 8th up to 2 feats, from 9th to 11th up to 2 feats, etc. Some PCs or NPCs will know their maximum allotment of feats, others not.

• Attacks of Opportunity: Attacks of opportunities are kepts for but a very few obvious circumstances (i.e.: when a foe turns back and flees, his opponent gets an attack of opportunity). Then, replace most attacks of opportunity with a bonus to hit to the normal attack. In most cases forget about it.

My suggestion: eliminate feats altogether.

This was, IMO, the big mistake of 3rd edition D&D -- there is no need to have both a skill system and a feat system.

This is even more true of a "modern" (NON-superhero) game.

You have natural abilities (the ability scores) and then you have skills. Feats add an unnecessary wrinkle to everything.

Your proposal for skills looks good. Maybe give the PCs (and the special NPCs as well) additional skill points.

But feats? Bleah -- they only make sense as "superpowers" for (a particular view of) fantasy games, or a superhero game.

I will think more about this...

 

[Turanil]

Okay, I will reveal the truth behind my question:

Long ago I was disatisfied with Traveller 20, and although I do like the d20 Star-Wars rules, I don't like the world to game in (my preference goes to hard sci-fi, not futuristic fantasy). As such I had begun writing a set of classes and rules, designed to be compatible with d20 Modern. However, d20 Future came, so I stopped working on this. Now, I do find creating characters in d20 Moder/Future extremely complex and really tedious (the reason for which i began a thread to create a stock of modern/sci-fi NPCs, and God, this is really boring to create ). And all of this to eventually end with a character who has essentially a number of skills...

So, getting the C&C book, I came back about this sci-fi d20 work, and thought making it a lite version of a sci-fi d20 game. So my thread is not for redoing a new version of C&C which is essentially lite D&D in style (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard). What I want to do is a lite d20 sci-fi game. With that in mind, there will be core classes (15 of them already written down, as far as fluff is concerned; game mechanics having to be done). These classes (IMO) need skills for a futuristic setting full of specialized fields of study and things one can do, etc.

Feats: I think I understand your point of view. My view of it is to allow some feats (but much less than what exists already), for players who love to customize. The idea is that the classes themselves don't have feats (even fighter-like don't have them). The feats are also optional in that one learns or not learns them. The maximum number that can be learned is determined by level (2nd to 4th level: 1 feat; 5th to 7th level: 2 feats; 8th to 10th level: 3 feats; 11th to 13th level: 4 feats; 14th to 16th level: 5 feats; 17th to 19th level: 6 feats; 20 th level: 7 feats). But most common NPCs don't have feats. One doesn't get a feat by getting more levels, he must find a teacher for getting them, that wil involve gaming story and roleplay to get there.

 

[Atilary]

Skill Ranks
Primary skills have a rank equal to their class level, secondary skills have a rank equal to half their class levels, rounded down. Characters with more than one class choose a skill list for each class. The ranks from each stack for game purposes. If a character a primary skill in one class and has that skill as a secondary skill in another class, the secondary skill ranks count as only ½ ranks, rounded down, for purposes of determining the maximum rank of the skill.

The Skill List
Acrobatics (Dex) (Balance/Tumble/Escape Artist)
Appraise (Int)
Animal Expertise (Dex) (Handle Animal/Ride)
Athletics (Str) (Climb/Swim/Jump)
Awareness (Dex) (Listen/Spot)
Craft (Int) (any, heal, read lips)
Decipher (Int) (Decipher Script)
Endurance (Con) (withstand stress)
Entertain (Cha) (Perform)
Gather Information (Cha)
Imitation (Cha ) (Disguise/Forgery)
Legend & Lore (Wis) (Knowledge, Research, Spellcraft)
Persuasion (Cha) (Bluff/ Intimidate)
Profession (Wis)
Reasoning (Cha) (Diplomacy/ Sense Motive)
Search (Wis)
Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Sneak (Wis) (Hide/Move Silently)
Use Device (Int) (Use Magic Device, Disable Device/Open Lock)
Wilderness Lore (Wis)

For example
Class Primary skills Secondary skills
Barb 3 1+int mod
bard 4 2+int mod
cleric 2 0+int mod
rogue 6 2+int mod

sorry about formatting but i dont know how to do graphs in the post.

 

[Akrasia]

Well I am not sure if this is what you're looking for, or even if it would work, but here is a quick idea for combining the C&C "prime" system with the Modern/Future skills system.

Create your character (roll up attributes) and assign primes. One prime, naturally, should be determined by your class (STR for space marine, INT for research scientist, etc), the other could be chosen.

Assign skills appropriate for each class. Every skill is either a "class skill" or "cross-class skill." The bonus to roll for class skills = the character's level. The bonus for cross-class skills = half the character's level (rounded down). The TN for the skill in question is determined by the ability score (12 for primes; 18 for nonprimes), as in C&C. Obviously, a character could be pretty good at her cross-class skills if she chose the appropriate prime.

I think you could us the combat rules pretty much "as is", though you may, for the sake of simplicity, get rid of AoOs, and combat feats.

You could add "feats" either as "class abilities" or options, as you describe in your post.

Hmmm ...

 

[Halivar]

Three stats:
STR: used for all Con-based checks and hp bonuses
INT: used for all Wis and Cha-based checks
DEX: same as before

You only get stat increases every six levels, and switch to a 15-point buy standard.

It doesn't make play any easier, but certainly stream-lines character generation.

 

[Turanil]

My suggestion: eliminate feats altogether.

This was, IMO, the big mistake of 3rd edition D&D -- there is no need to have both a skill system and a feat system.

Well, yesterday looking at my d20-lite-scifi project, I got a look at a compilation of 182 feats from d20 Modern, d20 Future, etc. I had made a while ago. Gosh! You are right! I have decided to get rid of them but not completely. Having a the possibility for a feat every 3 levels or so (the only feats that will be in my system) is something that players usually love. It's a measure of customization, a sort of bonus, like a treasure you get but not from equipment or magic item, something that helps differentiate the character. However, I will not keep these 182 feats. I will keep only a short list of simple stuff like Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, Skill focus, etc. Most combat feats will disappear, and there won't be any feat chains. I plan for maybe 20 or 30 feats of the easy sort, that add some flavor to the PC, no more.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Odd suggestion: Keep the feats but get rid of the skills instead. If you try to do something, you roll 1d20 and add your ability modifier. If you have a feat with the appropriate skill name you get to add your level to the total. I.e. make Climb a feat.

 

[fuindordm]

The problem with the "all skills are d20+level+bonus" approach is that it doesn't
mesh well with the d20 modern basic classes. You don't want to have a Strong
character only good at Athletic skills, and so forth.

I would just let the characters pick a number of skills based on their starting class. If they add a new basic class, let them pick one additional skill. If they add an advanced class, let them pick two additional skills from that class' list.

Condensing the skill list wouldn't hurt either. There was a thread on this subject two or three weeks ago in this forum. The list we came up with was:

Acrobatics (balance, tumble)
Acting (bluff, disguise)
Athletics (climb,jump,swim)
Awareness (spot,listen,search)
Healing
Influence (diplomacy, intimidate)
Intuition (sense motive, sense magic/psi)
Mechanics (open locks, disable device)
Mystic (concentration, spellcraft)
Riding (handle animal, ride)
Scribe (decipher script, forgery)
Stealth (hide, move silently)
Streetwise (gather info, local knowledge)
Survival (survival, intuit direction, knowledge: nature)
Sleight of Hand
Trader (appraise, diplomacy to influence prices)

Knowledge, Craft, and Profession skills were not grouped like this,
but offered synergy bonuses to the other skills where appropriate.

--Ben

 

[Akrasia]

The problem with the "all skills are d20+level+bonus" approach is that it doesn't mesh well with the d20 modern basic classes. You don't want to have a Strong character only good at Athletic skills, and so forth...

Well if we are going to take some ideas from C&C, then there is a way to get around the problem of "a Strong character only good at Athletic skills" by means of the "prime" system.

A Strong character would have strength as a "prime", but would also get to choose 1-2 other ability scores as additional "primes". A prime lowers the DC (or TN -- "target number") for all tasks associated with that ability score. So a Strong character who choose Intelligence as his/her additional prime would be quite good at Intelligence-related tasks, even though he/she would add a lower number (half-level, rounded down) to all "cross-class skill" modifiers to the task in question. So the Strong hero in question would be quite good at Intelligence tasks (much better than a Strong hero who chose Dexterity as his prime), but not as good as a Smart hero.

Ummm ... hope that makes sense.

Good job at streamlining the skill list, btw.