D&D 3E/3.5 Creature Catalog 3.5 Overhaul Project

[Knight Otu]

absolutely on the reach – I think most dragons get that anyway right? If standard reach for a long Huge creature is 10, should we give it 15 or 20 reach?

I'd go with 20. Standard reach is 10 feet for quadrupeds, and 15 for bipeds. Dragons get 10 normally, and 15 with their bite.

And, assuming it’s getting Multiattack, would that make the full attack line something like this?:

Full Attack: Bite +21 melee (3d10+8), 2 claws +19 melee (1d10+4), 2 wings +19 melee (2d10+4), 2 stomps +19 melee (2d6+4), and tail slap +19 melee (2d8+4)

Yep, sounds correct. (You almost got me with your listing of +12 BAB in the previous post. )

Huge Dragon
Hit Dice: 15d12+75 (172 hp)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1215/+2831
Saves: Fort +1314, Ref +89, Will +910

If I give it keen senses, do I still need to list low-light vision and darkvision?

Nope, it's built in.

[font=&quot]Keen Senses (Ex):[/font][font=&quot] A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.[/font]

I just re-read the description for Snatch. the first line reads: “The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack.” This kind of suggests that Snatch is superior. Though, if you really want both, I can do that.

Here, let me explain it this way. If we did give it a damage reduction of 15/vorpal, then someone hitting it with anything other than a vorpal weapon (and how many adventurers have one of those?) will barely hurt it at all.

And with your version, no one could even scratch it until it is too tired to fight, unless they have a vorpal weapon (same argument as above ), where they have to get a critical hit in, and that's it.

It would take someone that can do massive amounts of damage to hurt it – and then a creature that can do 30 or more damage with each hit could actually kill a jabberwock by hitting it enough times!

That's correct. Of course, it should absorb much damage, so we could make it DR 20/vorpal. I'd be hesitant to go higher than that, though.

Now, with my ability, adventurers can beat the snot out of it all day and all night. In fact, after enough hits the thing would go down, and the PCs would actually think they killed it.

Depends on how it is played, but I think adventurers would realize that they aren't really hurting the jabberwock, only getting it tired and ultimately unconcious.

Now, I’m not in love with my writeup, so I can change it if you give me a good reason.

I'm trying.
A compromise: Weapon attacks except slashing deals non-lethal damage. Slashing weapons deal minimum damage, maybe with DR. Vorpal weapons deal normal damage, and ignore the possible damage.

Any commentary on this?

Seems good.

 

[Shade]

Should we give it a crush attack like other Huge dragons as well (the standard damage is 2d8, if so)?

For the burble, perhaps we can borrow from the allip for the first part of the ability:

Burble (Su): A jabberwock constantly mutters or burbles to itself, creating a confusing effect. All sane creatures within 200 feet of the jabberwock must succeed on a DC X Will save or be affected as though by a confusion spell for as long as the victim is within range. This is a sonic mind-affecting compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Some ideas on reworking it: replace “constantly” with “as a free action” or “continuously” or both. Add “This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.” The save DC should be Charisma-based, I think. The text mentions a –4 penalty – this could be Ability Focus and/or a racial bonus to the DC. Also, this part was missed:

Actually, the allip uses "constantly" so it should probably stay. I'd go the Ability Focus route and skip the racial bonus.

Also, remove the reference to the tongues spell as this is confusing since 3E no longer makes use of “reversed” spells. I would much rather rewrite parts of the current tongues description, plus add in some bits from the 2E version of babble: “The reverse of the spell cancels the effect of the tongues spell or confuses verbal communication of any sort within the area of effect.”

Hmmm...I could have sworn a creature has a similar ability, but which one was it?....

Knight Otu - I still plead against allowing non-vorpal weapons to deal damage and here is why: 2-for-1 Power Attack with 2-handed weapons. I've seen damage reduction be a mere inconvenience consistently in my campaign, as the two greataxe-wielding dwarves simply Power Attack 10 to overcome nearly any creature's damage reduction. Sure, they don't hit as often with their later iterative attacks, but in time they generally outlast the critters. The jabberwork becomes just another creature who they can't fully damage, rather than a special encounter that requires the "right tool for the job" (or a spellcaster). Just my $.02 again.

 

[BOZ]

I'd go with 20. Standard reach is 10 feet for quadrupeds, and 15 for bipeds. Dragons get 10 normally, and 15 with their bite.

so…?
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft (20 ft with bite)

Yep, sounds correct. (You almost got me with your listing of +12 BAB in the previous post. )

yikes! Good thing you caught that! The only thing I can think of is that I must have been focusing in on the d12 for the Hit Dice that I changed it to… I must have confused myself (which is something new entirely, I swear to you) into thinking that it was a 12-HD monster – the BAB and saves I wrote down seem to confirm that. If you say the attack values are correct here, then I must have later looked and seen that I had a 15-HD Dragon and just calculated the BAB off of that rather than what it wrote down. so these are right then?:
Full Attack: Bite +21 melee (3d10+8), 2 claws +19 melee (1d10+4), 2 wings +19 melee (2d10+4), 2 stomps +19 melee (2d6+4), and tail slap +19 melee (2d8+4)

and I think I will be removing Improved Grab in favor of Snatch, and removing Flurry of Blows in favor of the above attack routine with Multiattack.

Should we give it a crush attack like other Huge dragons as well (the standard damage is 2d8, if so)?

I was thinking before about the possibility of giving it a Crush attack. Removing the above attack forms might be more than enough justification for adding Crush.

For the burble, perhaps we can borrow from the allip for the first part of the ability:

Burble (Su): A jabberwock constantly mutters or burbles to itself, creating a confusing effect. All sane creatures within 200 feet of the jabberwock must succeed on a DC X Will save or be affected as though by a confusion spell for as long as the victim is within range. This is a sonic mind-affecting compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

I like it so far. do we need to include the caster level 15, or “Creatures making a successful saving throw, must roll new saves each round they are in the area of effect.”?

And how’s this for the second part:
This sound also distorts the way an affected creature speaks: words slide, shift, and blend, producing odd hybrids that make communication very difficult. Any affected creature trying to speak or cast a spell cast a spell with a verbal component must succeed on a DC X Concentration check. The check DC is Charisma?-based. This also cancels any tongues or comprehend languages effect while a creature is affected.

Additionally, is there a way to incorporate this passage into the ability?:
“in addition, it distorts perception, causing hallucinations and strangely skewed judgment of distance: objects, or parts of objects, may appear much closer or further away than they actually are (this translates into a -3 penalty on the attack roll of anyone suffering from this confused warping of depth perception).”

I'd go the Ability Focus route and skip the racial bonus.

you got it.

Hmmm...I could have sworn a creature has a similar ability, but which one was it?....

you got me.


I think it is about time to take the vorpal discussion to the Rules forum for input from more people: click the link!

Present your cases there and we’ll, eh, let the people decide.

 

[Shade]

so…?
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft (20 ft with bite)

I like it!

and I think I will be removing Improved Grab in favor of Snatch, and removing Flurry of Blows in favor of the above attack routine with Multiattack.

Good call.

I like it so far. do we need to include the caster level 15, or “Creatures making a successful saving throw, must roll new saves each round they are in the area of effect.”?

I don't think we need the caster level, since it's Su, not Sp.

Hmmm...I'm not sure on the second part. It will require further thought.

And how’s this for the second part:
This sound also distorts the way an affected creature speaks: words slide, shift, and blend, producing odd hybrids that make communication very difficult. Any affected creature trying to speak or cast a spell cast a spell with a verbal component must succeed on a DC X Concentration check. The check DC is Charisma?-based. This also cancels any tongues or comprehend languages effect while a creature is affected.

Nice job! Yes to Cha-based.

Additionally, is there a way to incorporate this passage into the ability?:
“in addition, it distorts perception, causing hallucinations and strangely skewed judgment of distance: objects, or parts of objects, may appear much closer or further away than they actually are (this translates into a -3 penalty on the attack roll of anyone suffering from this confused warping of depth perception).”

I don't see why we can't incorporate it as-is.

 

[dcollins]

Just wanted to mention that the first place I saw a Jabberwocky was in AD&D Module EX2, "The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror", p. 14, (c) 1983.

The Jabberwocky (AC -6; MV 15"; HD 15; hp 90; #AT 1 or 2; D 5-20 or 2-12/2-12; SA charge of 30' or more doubles speed, allows all 3 attacks, and causes +1/die rolled for damage; SD 25% magic resistance)

The description here actually says it's a "bipedal monster [that] appears rather reptilian". The first attack is a great horn on its head, the other 2 are leg smashes. (Guess it's kind of tyrannosaur-like.) It also says it's got the ability to fight under 0 hit points (up to -10 hp or for 6 rounds under 0), similar to boars & such in AD&D.

Sounds like this incarnation would be a Magical Beast, with Pounce ability, Ferocity ability (like dire boar), and SR 16. Oh, and there's no mention of special vorpal-sword vulnerability or requirement.

 

[BOZ]

Hmmm...I'm not sure on the second part. It will require further thought.

so, after giving further thought, does Burble need the “Creatures making a successful saving throw, must roll new saves each round they are in the area of effect.” line?

I don't see why we can't incorporate it as-is.

well, I do need to rewrite it, just a bit.

This sound also distorts an affected creature’s depth perception, causing a skewed judgment of distance. Creatures, objects, and parts of objects may appear to be much closer or further away than they actually are, causing an affected creature to suffer a –3 circumstance penalty on attack rolls.


dcollins, thanks. That version of the creature looks so significantly different from the one we’re working with that there’s no real way to incorporate it. That just goes to show how widely different interpretations can be when the original source leaves it up to your imagination. I will add it to the credits section though, as follows:

Originally found in Monstrous Compendium Annual Three (1996). Different versions of the Jabberwock were also found in Dragon Magazine #54 (“Beware the Jabberwock,” October 1981, Mark Nuiver) and module EX2 – The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror (1983).

 

[Shade]

so, after giving further thought, does Burble need the “Creatures making a successful saving throw, must roll new saves each round they are in the area of effect.” line?

Yeah, I think so. Either that, or add that it lingers for XdX rounds after leaving the area.

well, I do need to rewrite it, just a bit.

This sound also distorts an affected creature’s depth perception, causing a skewed judgment of distance. Creatures, objects, and parts of objects may appear to be much closer or further away than they actually are, causing an affected creature to suffer a –3 circumstance penalty on attack rolls.

Get me rewrite! Just kidding, it looks good.

 

[BOZ]

Yeah, I think so. Either that, or add that it lingers for XdX rounds after leaving the area.

not sure I want the effect lingering after the creatures are out of range…

 

[Shade]

not sure I want the effect lingering after the creatures are out of range…

No problem. Just stick with new saves each round then.

 

[BOZ]

okie dokie. posting in homebrews!

I’ll leave the whole vorpal debate open for a little while.