criteria for new races to be added to the PHB

I'd be shocked if goblins replace halflings, they're pretty iconic to D&D. Sure they overlap in being small and kind of sneaky, but goblins are kind of the grittier, more neutral/evil choice for sneaky characters. Like how the half-orc is for fighters/barbarians.
I actually agree but I think it's quite a narrow thing. Half-Orcs are an interesting thing to mention because I think they're one of the more "vulnerable" races in current D&D, as they have a less distinct identity and hit less archetypes. Halflings are just barely iconic/popular enough to keep blocking Goblins. Goblins, in general, are seen as more mischievous than outright evil, note, especially among younger players (in my experience), and double-especially among people whose primary experience of Goblins comes from sources other than D&D (where Goblin-type races are wildly more common than Halfling-type ones).

I think they'd already have replaced Gnomes with 5E if it wasn't for the fact that Gnomes are kind of the only clear "Smart guy" archetype in modern D&D (Elves sorta hang around there but it's not been primary thing since 2E High Elves/Grey Elves really).

I think going through the races of D&D and exploring their archetypes would be entire thread of it's own, but certainly I would say the most vulnerable 5E race for replacement is Half-Orc, closely followed by Gnome, more distantly trailed by Halfling. I think Half-Orcs could be replaced in the PHB by Goliaths or Warforged or a number of other races (including actual-Orcs) and there would be very little outcry - indeed I suspect such a replacement would please more people than it upset.

Half-Elves should, in theory, be vulnerable, because basically they don't do anything humans and elves don't do and the half-race thing isn't like, particularly attractive in and of itself, but they're wildly popular, and have been since at least 2E, and sort of carved out a schtick of "The key benefits of Elf plus flexibility and a lack of elven cultural baggage!"/. that you get to pretend your superhuman, great-looking, long-lived self is "trapped between two cultures" and thus some sort of implausible "underdog" despite their manifest advantages is just gravy.
 

LuisCarlos17f

Adventurer
Maybe WotC could publish a "Race Compendium" or "Races of Legends" with a compilation of most popular no-core PC races and with optional lists of racial traits for all. This would allow to play a gnome druid or an orc shaman. But then we would need the ultimate list of classes, and this will a lot of time.
 
Well, if those are really common to many settings then I would understand putting them in the PHB, but I am a bit surprised they are...

Which settings regularly feature Goblins, Deep Gnomes and Aasimars? Just asking because I don't know. I guess Goblins are in Eberron but I don't think they were in the original book in 3e. Aasimars in Planescape of course. I don't think Forgotten Realms really counts because it has almost everything you can think about...

In general I think a D&D PHB should focus on races that are essential to a few main settings, not just races that have an appearance in lots of them. In fact, if it wasn't for the decision to include stuff from all editions PHBs in 5e PHB, I don't think we would have gotten Tiefling and Dragonborn.

Additionally, you have to consider 2 more potential problems:

- if you include something in the PHB, you better prepare for supporting it in other supplements regularly, or face the "why no love for class/race X?" criticism

- if one race has different takes in different settings, you'll have to reprint it anyway (I'm thinking about Goblins here, there's a huge difference between Tolkien-goblins and Warcraft-goblins, and different settings base their version on one or the other. In 5e you can maybe get away with 2 subraces, but still...)
 

gyor

Hero
Well, if those are really common to many settings then I would understand putting them in the PHB, but I am a bit surprised they are...

Which settings regularly feature Goblins, Deep Gnomes and Aasimars? Just asking because I don't know. I guess Goblins are in Eberron but I don't think they were in the original book in 3e. Aasimars in Planescape of course. I don't think Forgotten Realms really counts because it has almost everything you can think about...

In general I think a D&D PHB should focus on races that are essential to a few main settings, not just races that have an appearance in lots of them. In fact, if it wasn't for the decision to include stuff from all editions PHBs in 5e PHB, I don't think we would have gotten Tiefling and Dragonborn.

Additionally, you have to consider 2 more potential problems:

- if you include something in the PHB, you better prepare for supporting it in other supplements regularly, or face the "why no love for class/race X?" criticism

- if one race has different takes in different settings, you'll have to reprint it anyway (I'm thinking about Goblins here, there's a huge difference between Tolkien-goblins and Warcraft-goblins, and different settings base their version on one or the other. In 5e you can maybe get away with 2 subraces, but still...)
If a playable race keeps being reprinted, it's a sign it's essential.

And of course FR counts, it doesn't have everything, just nearly so.

Goblins as playable appeared in VGTM, GMGtR, and ERftLW. And if we get more MtG settings for D&D they could be reprinted even more. That suggests that yes they are essential to a lot of settings. And I say this as someone who is not a fan of D&D Goblins (I prefer Bugbears and some none D&D Goblins). It's just practical. And they appear as villians in almost every single classical D&D setting, except Athas.

Aasimar are essential IMHO for the Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Nentir Vale, and possibly other settings, appear in Eberron, and fit into more like Greyhawk, Spelljammer, and others. Plus they are connected in a way to Tieflings and Genasi traditionally, as the Planetouched races. Aasimar are very important in FR, they are not just another race. They are living Gods in FR in the form of Aasimar, they are important to nations in the Old Empires region, there is a Aasimar Priest of Mask who helped bring Mask back, a city of Aasimar in Gates of the Moon, and their is of course traditional odd ball Aasimar. And more.

Goliaths are important to FR and Nentir Vale and in the form of Half Giants Athas.

Genasi are important to Faerun, Athas (4e), Planescape, Nentir Vale.

Shifters are important to Faerun, Nentir Vale, and Eberron obviously.
 
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gyor

Hero
I actually agree but I think it's quite a narrow thing. Half-Orcs are an interesting thing to mention because I think they're one of the more "vulnerable" races in current D&D, as they have a less distinct identity and hit less archetypes. Halflings are just barely iconic/popular enough to keep blocking Goblins. Goblins, in general, are seen as more mischievous than outright evil, note, especially among younger players (in my experience), and double-especially among people whose primary experience of Goblins comes from sources other than D&D (where Goblin-type races are wildly more common than Halfling-type ones).

I think they'd already have replaced Gnomes with 5E if it wasn't for the fact that Gnomes are kind of the only clear "Smart guy" archetype in modern D&D (Elves sorta hang around there but it's not been primary thing since 2E High Elves/Grey Elves really).

I think going through the races of D&D and exploring their archetypes would be entire thread of it's own, but certainly I would say the most vulnerable 5E race for replacement is Half-Orc, closely followed by Gnome, more distantly trailed by Halfling. I think Half-Orcs could be replaced in the PHB by Goliaths or Warforged or a number of other races (including actual-Orcs) and there would be very little outcry - indeed I suspect such a replacement would please more people than it upset.

Half-Elves should, in theory, be vulnerable, because basically they don't do anything humans and elves don't do and the half-race thing isn't like, particularly attractive in and of itself, but they're wildly popular, and have been since at least 2E, and sort of carved out a schtick of "The key benefits of Elf plus flexibility and a lack of elven cultural baggage!"/. that you get to pretend your superhuman, great-looking, long-lived self is "trapped between two cultures" and thus some sort of implausible "underdog" despite their manifest advantages is just gravy.
You could fold Half Elves and Half Orcs into humans like Pathfinder 2e does.

Anyways here is FRs city of aasimar:

 
If a playable race keeps being reprinted, it's a sign it's essential.
That's just too simplistic. You have to look at why it's it's being reprinted, if it's popular with players (rather than DMs/setting writers, who often have odd ideas about "cool" races), what archetypes it covers, and whether it's actually popular enough to displace other PHB races. That's your bar.
 

Marandahir

Explorer
Cutting out Gnomes, Bards, Barbarians, Monks, Druids, Half-Orcs, Sorcerers and Monks from the 1st PHB is one of the many contributing factors for why 4e is looked down on. I know that every one of those did come back in PHB2 and PHB3, but by then the damage was done.
I loved 4e, but I entirely agree with this statement.

There's a reason 5e included Warlocks and Tieflings and Dragonborn. No PHB cuts.

(Battle Master Fighter was SUPPOSED to represent the Warlord character archetype, but since then we've also had Banneret with a different take…).

Maybe WotC could publish a "Race Compendium" or "Races of Legends" with a compilation of most popular no-core PC races and with optional lists of racial traits for all. This would allow to play a gnome druid or an orc shaman. But then we would need the ultimate list of classes, and this will a lot of time.
This would be great, but remember that AL only allows PHB+1. There's a reason the "main" expansion books (Volo, Xanathar, Mordenkainen) focus on EITHER Races or Classes. Setting Guides dabble with a bit of both, so you can get some weird and interesting combinations, but when it comes to +1, in general, you're either using PHB Races + expansion classes, or PHB classes + expansion races.
 
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Coroc

Adventurer
...

So Goblins, Deep Gnomes, and Aasimar should be in the PHB, possible other races as well.
But as being absolutely optional and campaign dependant. Or are the FR fans cool now with a Goblin promenading the market in Waterdeep? I would expect a torch and pitchfork mob, because maybe farmers have lost their relatives to Goblins.
 

Coroc

Adventurer
...
Half-Orcs are an interesting thing to mention because I think they're one of the more "vulnerable" races in current D&D,

...
Just ROFLMAO this just made my day,

Look at that poor vulnerable halforc, he just wants to play :p

I know of course what you your meant but still this made me cringe.

Conan: "What makes a man is to to drive his enemies before his sword and enjoy the laments of their women"
Hyperborian RPG rulebook: "... Barbarians are among the more vulnerable races in the game ..."
 
But as being absolutely optional and campaign dependant. Or are the FR fans cool now with a Goblin promenading the market in Waterdeep? I would expect a torch and pitchfork mob, because maybe farmers have lost their relatives to Goblins.
This is the thing of course. A Forgotten Realms goblin is a vicious always evil monster. Goblins in other settings are really completely different creatures who just happen to look the same and have similar stats.
 

gyor

Hero
But as being absolutely optional and campaign dependant. Or are the FR fans cool now with a Goblin promenading the market in Waterdeep? I would expect a torch and pitchfork mob, because maybe farmers have lost their relatives to Goblins.
Even in earlier editions Waterdeep was cosmopolition about such matters compared to other cities.

It used to be the only humaniod race banned from city were Drow, but eventually even Drow where let in.

And now a lot of cities, most allow almost any race as long as it's not large enough to be an army.

And a single Goblin or family of Goblins are not scary if they act civilized.

You know what race surprises me that are allowed into human cities in the Forgotten Realms? Elves. Knowing Elven History, those are the scary race. They caused the first Sundering, Crown Wars, Genocidal Magics, and so much more.
 

Coroc

Adventurer
....

You know what race surprises me that are allowed into human cities in the Forgotten Realms? Elves. Knowing Elven History, those are the scary race. They caused the first Sundering, Crown Wars, Genocidal Magics, and so much more.
Yes, and given some earlier conflicts and historic events which for these long living races might be not so far in the past, it is also astonishing that elves and dwarves get along quite well.
 

gyor

Hero
This is the thing of course. A Forgotten Realms goblin is a vicious always evil monster. Goblins in other settings are really completely different creatures who just happen to look the same and have similar stats.
Goblins in FR aren't always evil, they still have free will and in fact Gobliniods as actually common in Zakharan cities for example. Of Course Zakhara even managed to civilize Trolls and Hill Giants!
 
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gyor

Hero
Yes, and given some earlier conflicts and historic events which for these long living races might be not so far in the past, it is also astonishing that elves and dwarves get along quite well.
Yeah, I'll invite Gobliniods into my cities before I'd feel safe around Elves, look what they did to the 12 cities of Jhaamdath for example, the greatest Psionic civilization in FR history, wiped out in minutes by a tidal wave caused by Elven High Magic. Just one scary ass example.
 

gyor

Hero
That's just too simplistic. You have to look at why it's it's being reprinted, if it's popular with players (rather than DMs/setting writers, who often have odd ideas about "cool" races), what archetypes it covers, and whether it's actually popular enough to displace other PHB races. That's your bar.
It doesn't have to displace another race, I'm talking for PHB 5.5e or 6e.
 
It doesn't have to displace another race, I'm talking for PHB 5.5e or 6e.
I don't think there is much chance a 5.5E or 6E PHB will have more races than 5E. I mean, it's not impossible, I guess. 3E had 7, 4E had 8, 5E has 9, so I suppose 6E could have 10 but I suspect if anything sticking with 9 or going down to 8 is more likely.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
But as being absolutely optional and campaign dependant. Or are the FR fans cool now with a Goblin promenading the market in Waterdeep? I would expect a torch and pitchfork mob, because maybe farmers have lost their relatives to Goblins.
Of course I expect to see Goblinoids in Waterdeep. It’s Waterdeep.

There is an Orcish nation that trades with Waterdeep and the other cities and states of the north.

And there are probably farmers that lost relatives to human raiders and bandits, too. FR is a world that is canonically assumed to be less xenophobic in most places, but especially in places like Waterdeep, than the actual Earth Middle Ages.
 

Coroc

Adventurer
Of course I expect to see Goblinoids in Waterdeep. It’s Waterdeep.

There is an Orcish nation that trades with Waterdeep and the other cities and states of the north.

And there are probably farmers that lost relatives to human raiders and bandits, too. FR is a world that is canonically assumed to be less xenophobic in most places, but especially in places like Waterdeep, than the actual Earth Middle Ages.
Well FR is lost then :p, soon there will be the law of Gruumsh ruling the place.

Just kidding, any real world similarities are totally coincidental (not) :p
Duck and cover
 

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