Critical Effects: Critiques Wanted

[WarRabbit]

I can understand keeping your system the way it is for simplicity's sake, but bleeding isn't really all that unbalanced. Using the Rolemaster charts, when we had bleeding damage I let it get cured at a simple 2hp healed = 1 point of bleeding rate. Rolemaster had much less healing available and you had to know specific 'stop bleeding' spells to stop bleeding. If you let 'cure wounds' spells stop bleeding, then the PCs can stop bleeding in a hurry with a simple potion, scroll, or spell...with the "Of Wounding" effect, nothing can stop the bleeding because of it's magical nature.

About different weapon damage types: Of course someone would pick bludgeoning weapons do get the extra daze effect, but then they'd be losing out on the extra bleeding effect of a puncture or the extra penalty effect of a slash.

I"m not trying to say you should change your system, just that the effects I had in mind seem to have worked well with what I"ve been doing for years....it's lethal but fun, but crits are rare since only 20's do the crit and the big wound crits only happen on very good crit rolls.

I'll get off my high horse now and may even break down and use your system in place of the RM one because simpler is better. Using the RM charts the way I do may be more real, but it does require bookkeping and is a little cumbersome. Your system packs a lot of realism in a simple package(just like the d20 system in general) and that's what helps a good gaming session along.

 

[DnDChick]

You and I have really just hit on the single biggest problem about trying to implement a system like this for D20: finding that delicate balance between realism and simplicity.

The Crit Effects system I have here is fairly easy to manipulate, so if you want to add the bleeding and daze effects, its certainly no problem to do so!

Hope your playtest goes well this weekend!

 

[Tanager]

I like it, a lot. Add this to Ken Hood's grim-n-gritty rules and combat becomes very frightening.

A question though, I only read over the rules posted quickly (and will give them another, more careful look, when time allows) and I noticed the descriptors for fire and cold damage. Any ideas on how to handle magic within this system? Spells with attack rolls are fairly simple, but what about spells with area effects and saves (ie fireballs and such). Maybe they're deadly enough already, maybe not.

Anyhoo, thanks for the good work, consider it yoinked.

Tanager

 

[DnDChick]

Ive addressed how to use the CritEffects with spells such as fireball. Any target of such a spell that rolls a 1 on their save allows the caster of the spell to roll on the appropriate chart.

So if your wizard fireballs an orc, and the orc rolls a 1 on his Reflex save, you get to roll on the FIRE column for a crit effect.

Same goes for things like lightning bolt, ice storm, and so on.

And....yoink away! Thats what I posted it here for!

NOTE TO ANY D20 PUBLISHER WHO WANTS TO USE MY CRIT EFFECTS IN A PUBLICATION (and yes...I have had offers!)...PLEASE NOTIFY ME VIA EMAIL.

 

[Quickbeam]

Well DnDChick we played last night, and I've managed to catch up on the posts since I last stopped by this thread. Here are the results of our session and my thoughts on all the new "stuff" and changes herein:

-- Our session yielded absolutely NO criticals with which we could test your lovely system . We spent almost the entire evening fighting undead (with a carrion crawler and a few rats thrown in for variety) and our foes rolled no successful crits, and our threats didn't matter *sigh*. Nonetheless, we will try again next week, and I'm optimistic that we'll get to use the tables soon.

-- As for the recent changes and additional thoughts...
1) I love the idea of a natural 1 saving throw resulting in a critical failure opportunity.
2) The other tweaks to save DC, healing time, etc. all look great!!
3) I agree that there comes a time to make your stand with respect to realism vs. playablility, and your system is great in that regard IMO. I'm not the biggest fan of critical effect tables, but I do like yours for numerous reasons .
4) Not to be an arse, but the only suggestions/optional rules posted which retain the intended weapon balance, are those which only allow natural 20's to result in critical effect threatens. This is the only way our group can agree to use crit tables like yours, otherwise everyone is going to want weapons with 18-20 threat ranges *OR* they'll spend every penny they can on keen blades. Like I said before, if any threaten causes a roll which initiates the possible effects listed in your system, then logically, weapons which threaten more often will lead to more frequent devastating effects. Even though the saving throw against damage received from a rapier would have a potentially lower DC than the save versus a greataxe, the rapier will threaten three times more often than the greataxe. That's why I say that only rolls of natural 20 should activate your tables.

Again, great system and hopefully I can share our results with its use, soon !

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

My group will be retesting your rules today. Just printed out the revised version.

Question: If rolling a critical failure (1) on a spell save now may yield a critical effect, shouldn't there be a table for various types of non-lethal effects?

Example: I fail a save vs charm person by rolling a 1. Consulting the Enchantment table, I roll 1d20...

Roll 1-10 Dazed.
Subject must make another Will save (DC 13) or be dazed for 1 round after the spell effect ends.

Roll 11-14. Awed/Afraid.
Subject must make a second Will save (DC15) or be unwilling to attack or otherwise directly or indirectly harm the caster for 1 minute unless attacked first. This does not preclude the subject from running away or otherwise trying to escape the caster. Regardless of awe or fear effect, subject is -2 to hit caster for the next minute. Awed characters attempt to use non-lethal/subdual damage if possible to the caster.

Roll 15-17. Swayed/Scared.
Subject permanently enamored of caster (if charmed) or afraid of caster (if victim of fear/confusion type spells). Regardless of enamoring or fear effect, subject is -4 to hit caster in any situation and will only do so if absolutely necessary. An enamored subject will attempt to use non-violent means of overcoming the caster (using subdual damage if possible). Terrified characters seek to do just enough damage to get away from the caster though will fight to the death if cornered.

Roll 18-19. Awestruck/Terrified/Confused/Etc.
The duration of the spell is doubled just as if the caster had used the Extend Spell feat. If the caster used Extend Spell on the spell already, then the duration is tripled.

Roll 20 Enslaved/Doomed.
Subject permanently under the effects of the enchantment (needs successful dispel magic to remove).

What do you think?

 

[DnDChick]

Nifty idea, KK, but I want to try to avoid being like Rolemaster that had a table to roll on for every conceivable game result...sometimes TWO tables! LOL

I only added the crit effect chance on a save failure to allow spells that cause damage to possibly cause critical effects as well. For isntance, a fireball can not only do LOTS of damage, but if you fail your Reflex save, you take it full in the face and might have a body part or to incinerated!

It wouldnt be difficult to whip up extra tables like that using mine as a guideline if you want to!

 

[DnDChick]

-- Our session yielded absolutely NO criticals with which we could test your lovely system . We spent almost the entire evening fighting undead (with a carrion crawler and a few rats thrown in for variety) and our foes rolled no successful crits, and our threats didn't matter *sigh*. Nonetheless, we will try again next week, and I'm optimistic that we'll get to use the tables soon.

Okie! As always, lemme know what happens! _

-- As for the recent changes and additional thoughts...
1) I love the idea of a natural 1 saving throw resulting in a critical failure opportunity.

Yup...Im glad that was pointed out to me. Gives wizards and sorcerers a chance to roll crit effects!

2) The other tweaks to save DC, healing time, etc. all look great!!

Thanks! I try to please!

3) I agree that there comes a time to make your stand with respect to realism vs. playablility, and your system is great in that regard IMO. I'm not the biggest fan of critical effect tables, but I do like yours for numerous reasons .

Thanks! It is truely a compliment when someone who doesnt like crit tables as a rule likes mine!

4) Not to be an arse, but the only suggestions/optional rules posted which retain the intended weapon balance, are those which only allow natural 20's to result in critical effect threatens. This is the only way our group can agree to use crit tables like yours, otherwise everyone is going to want weapons with 18-20 threat ranges *OR* they'll spend every penny they can on keen blades. Like I said before, if any threaten causes a roll which initiates the possible effects listed in your system, then logically, weapons which threaten more often will lead to more frequent devastating effects. Even though the saving throw against damage received from a rapier would have a potentially lower DC than the save versus a greataxe, the rapier will threaten three times more often than the greataxe. That's why I say that only rolls of natural 20 should activate your tables.

Right...I included that as an optional rule. The DM now has the choice of which method to use.

 

[Quickbeam]

Thanks for including the "natural 20 only" as an activation requirement among your optional rules. And don't get me wrong when I say I'm not a big fan of critical effect tables -- they can be fantastic for adding color, flavor, variety and realism to encounters. I just hadn't seen any that were plaible, coherent, reasonable, and handled the threat range problem. Yours do all of that, and thus they are wonderful !!

Now if we could just score a crit on something that wasn't undead...

 

[DnDChick]

Thanks for including the "natural 20 only" as an activation requirement among your optional rules. And don't get me wrong when I say I'm not a big fan of critical effect tables -- they can be fantastic for adding color, flavor, variety and realism to encounters. I just hadn't seen any that were plaible, coherent, reasonable, and handled the threat range problem. Yours do all of that, and thus they are wonderful !!

Now if we could just score a crit on something that wasn't undead...

Glad ya like em!

Well...you can still roll on the crit effects table for things that would have been a critical ordinarily. Be kewl to add flavor by telling a player he just lopped off a zombie's head and its still staggering towards him!

But...I know players...they would complain about "wasting" a good crit roll on something like an undead...

How about this...for creatures immune to critical effects, just for flavor text, you can have any roll of natural 20 to hit automatically go to the Crit Effects table...its just that the crit effect has no real influence on the monster and is only there to give the player an idea of what he or she did to their opponent.