Pathfinder 1E Critical Fumbles: Need Help Convincing DM

[Morrus]

Also, have you tried pointing out that there is no such thing as a good critical fumble rule anyway? This is objecive fact. ;0) (And, sorry, but this includes your proposed table.)

Actually, there is one. The optional one. For those players who enjoy it, while those who don't can opt out.

A roll of 1 gives you choice. You can take the 1 as the regular auto-miss as normal; or you can choose to roll again. If you miss on the second roll, it's a fumble. Each player can only fumble once per round.

The reason it's good is that there are players out there who enjoy the randomness of fumbles. And those who don't just ignore it.

Brekaing weapons and missing turns/actions should never feature in a fumble table, though; those are simply fun killers. A fumble shouldn't have a result which prevents the player from playing the game he's turned up to play.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A roll of 1 gives you choice. You can take the 1 as the regular auto-miss as normal; or you can choose to roll again. If you miss on the second roll, it's a fumble. Each player can only fumble once per round.

The reason it's good is that there are players out there who enjoy the randomness of fumbles. And those who don't just ignore it.

And in this set up does a hit with the second roll do anything? A crit or nat 20?

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Not quite. Somehow I think you might be misunderstanding me. Let me break it down.

The player rolls four attacks against his opponent. She rolls 12, 14, 1 and 1.
For the first natural 1 a D100 is rolled. If it comes up 1-10 there is a fumble. Any other result is just a swing and a miss.
No roll is made for the second natural 1 because a fumble check has already been checked, whether it was a fumble or not.

That make more sense? A character may have a greater chance of a fumble because they have more attacks but they can only fumble once per combat round, rather than multiple. Is that what you are saying?

As I said before, I wouldn't use fumbles but my players like having them so it's a fair compromise for my group.

You haven't been very clear so far...

But this answers the question with YES, having multiple attacks does increase the chance of fumbling ONCE per round. Not quite as much as if you had roll a check on all of them, and clearly not as bad as natural 1 is always fumble, but it's still there.

Regardless, with the percentile roll I would think fumbles are few and far between in your games, which I don't mind at all.

I generally don't use fumbles in my own game, at least not for PCs, since I'm trying to keep it as close to the actual rules as possible since I'm still "testing" out pathfinder.

 

[Siuis]

Critical and Fumbles are not about being balanced based on level they are about being Cinematic.

Almost. A good fumble chart should be cinematic; again, I've had a lot of bad experiences. [sblock="Qute literally,"] the DM implemented A devastating fumble chart (where the best result, a broken limb, was still 50% likely to lead to death) because he had players roll 1d10+9 for stats, removed racial level maximums, and didn't play magic by segment, resulting in parties of 10/10 elven paladin/magic-user bladesingers with armor in the -6 to -12 range. Personally, I'd rather just play with the rules as printed than have the DM "balance" his own mistakes by giving me a 1/20 chance of murdering myself. Even better, of the three DMs I've had use fumble tables had them be player only. One game broke down into argument where every player jumped on the DM for rolling three 1's and not having anything happen to his ex-PC BBEG.[/sblock]

Do you see my point?

So you protected against an insanely bad string of luck, but the issue of "chance of fumbling increases as the character gains more attacks" remains true. As long as more than one attack qualifies to potentially result in a fumble, having more attacks will mean you will fumble more often.

That sounds playable. It does the things I require of a cinematic device; it takes into account the skill of the user, and it doesn't jar horribly when compared to the rest of the ruleset. 3.5, et al has a confirmation mechanism for good crits. Why should I auto-confirm bad crits? I can't auto-kill on a good crit, why am I auto-killed on a bad crit? So long as it's a rule implemented like every other rule, it's neat. A hard balance between fun and highly irritating, but mileage and variance and all that.

 

[Aluvial]

This is how I do fumbles.

If you roll a natural 1 in combat, then you must make a second roll to confirm the fumble. I call this the Fumble Check. The DC for the check is 10 + 1d12. You get your BAB + your Dex modifier (it has been suggested you use your Wisdom modifier for this) against the DC.

If you fail the Fumble Check, the DM rolls a D12 and consults the chart.

If you roll a second 1 on the Fumble check, you automatically fail and roll twice on the chart.

The BAB component takes into account the player's skill with attacking, the Dex modifier is obvious (I like the idea of Wisdom modifier here to represent skill in another way, but I could not sell the idea to the group.) The DC of 10 + D12 represents the ups and downs of battle.

Here is the Chart. I've borrowed some of this from a few others here, I'm sorry I can't remember who I lifted it from.

Melee Weapons, and Thrown Ranged Weapons: ROLL 1d12
1. STUMBLE BACK – Move back 5’ in a random direction. If you can’t move, fall prone, take 1d4 subdual damage and provoke an AoO.
2. OFF BALANCE – You are flat-footed until the beginning of your next turn and provoke an AoO.
3. OVER SWING – Make a Reflex Save (DC is the AC of your target) or lose your balance and fall prone, take 1d4 subdual damage, provoke an AoO, and are Stunned for 1 round.
4. DAMAGE WEAPON – If weapon is not magical, it becomes damaged and will only do half normal damage until repaired. If magical, weapon is -2 to attack and damage until repaired.
5. RUIN WEAPON – If weapon is not magical, it becomes ruined and is no longer usable. If magical, then weapon makes Fort Save (DC 10 + 1d12) or loses +1 enhancement or ability until repaired.
6. WEAPON/ITEM GOES FLYING – Weapon/Item ends up 1d6 squares away, Roll 1d8 for direction.
7. WILD SWING – Hit wrong target. Roll randomly between adjacent foes and allies to determine target. Re-roll attack and provoke an AoO.
8. KNOCK OVER NEARBY COMBATANT – Roll randomly between adjacent foes and allies to determine target. Target must make a Reflex Save (DC is 10 + the attack modifier used for the fumble) or be knocked prone, taking 1d4 subdual damage, and provoking an AoO.
9. HIT SELF – Make a Reflex Save (DC is the AC you were trying to hit) or take damage. Take 1/2 damage normally and 1/2 as subdual. Provokes an AoO.
10. DISTRACTED – Make a Will Save (DC is 15 + 1d12) or be -1 to AC, attacks, damage, ability checks, skill checks, and saves for remainder of this turn and your next turn.
11. INCREDIBLE MISS! – Score a critical hit on the target, but you lose your grip on your weapon as it is stuck in their body. Resolve critical hit damage. If the opponent lives, the weapon remains stuck and can only be withdrawn with a grapple (to grab the weapon) and a Strength check (DC is 12 + 1d12). A weapon can be freed from a dead opponent with a Strength check (DC is 8 + 1d12) that provokes an AoO.
12. COMICAL DISTRACTION – Something comical occurs, reroll on chart ignoring a result of a 12, and improvise the result (fall, fail, hit nuts, etc.). Humorous activity distracts all others within 30’ that fail a Will Save (DC is 12 + 1d12) which opens them up to an AoO.

I want to rename a few of the titles on the chart, but for the most part, it works well. I have another chart for ranged weapons and am developing one for natural weapons and for spells
Aluvial​

 

[Beginning of the End]

So if he rolls 2, 4, 1, and 20 then he doesn't fumble?

That could be an interesting fumble variant: You only threaten a fumble if your first attack roll was a natural 1 and you missed with all your attacks on the round. If that's the case, then you make a fumble check and only fumble if you miss on this confirmation roll.

This would mean that characters with multiple attacks would become progressively less likely to fumble, which is the way it should be. It also means fumbles will be comparatively rare at higher levels, which is also a feature, IMO.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

That could be an interesting fumble variant: You only threaten a fumble if your first attack roll was a natural 1 and you miss rolled with all your attacks on the round.

If that's the case, then you make a fumble check and only fumble if you miss on this confirmation

This would mean that characters with multiple attacks would become progressively less likely to fumble, which is the way it should be. It also means fumbles will be comparatively rare at higher levels, which is also a feature, IMO.

Ah yes it could be indeed and it was almost what I hoped Dragonlance meant (when in fact he was just being unclear ). The only drawback is that creatures with multiple same bonus attacks must still differentiate which die is the first rolled, or just roll one die before the other attacks.

But would you keep the confirmation check? If you do, then the chances would be so small you might not even bother using fumbles at all on higher levels, while on low level the fumbles would be 5% of the attacks which is too high.

Also while BAB is an example of skill at arms, having multiple attacks from other scources is not entirely that. Rapid shot allows you to shoot faster, not more accurately, and should not decrease the chance of fumbling (if anything the chance should INcrease). Same thing with Two-weapon or multiweapon fighting, or Flurry.

Which is why I still prefer a confirmation system based on total attack bonus for the attack in question.

Confirmation test for crits make sense - someone in heavy armor or extremely dodgy will be harder to hit a sensetive location. Not so with fumbles however, why would it be easier to stumble just because your foe has a shield and full plate? Thus I beleive Confirmation test for fumbles should be based on a set DC instead. 15 Seems to be the typical "challenging" test, and attack DC 15 is pretty much 50/50 for a first level warrior type.

If you think this is too hard then you could set it at DC 10. That could still mean fumbling at low levels while would very quickly become impossible to fail. As an option you could always have 1 as automatic failure so that you COULD fumble at 20th level with 2 consecutive 1s.

 

[williambertram]

How about this?

Much like politics, I personally think both sides of the "fumble" argument I've heard over the years are somewhat unnecessarily polarizing. There has to be a fun way to balance natural wear and tear on weapons without being obnoxious.

Before I explain this, one thing I noticed is that some of the thinner bladed weapons like rapier, scimitar, dagger, etc. have higher crit ranges. While this isn't universally true, a marginally believable argument could be made that weapons with higher crit ranges might be easier to break.

So you roll a natural 1 on your attack, and treat it as a fumble threat. Then you roll against the weapons crit range to confirm the fumble, just as if you were rolling to confirm a crit (minus any bonus to critical hits. Just use the weapons natural crit range). If you confirm the fumble, roll damage. Next, subtract the weapons hardness (per the Pathfinder "Damaging Objects" rules) from the damage you rolled to determine how much damage the weapon takes. Subtract the total damage from the weapons HP (also on the "Damaging Objects" rules). To determine the effects of a damaged weapon, simply use the rules for the "Broken" condition. Sounds kind of fiddly, but in practice you just use a dice to track the damage and it doesn't really slow the game down much at all, especially when you figure that there is only a 5% chance to roll a 1. When people throw a fit, politely remind them that both King Arthur broke Excalibur (in Excalibur), Narsil was broken (in Lord of the Rings), and the master sword made by Conan's father (in Conan the Barbarian) was broken. So even in fantasy fiction weapon breakage does happen. For unarmed combatants, you could just give them HP damage as if they had sprained a wrist, broken a knuckle, or broken a toe (which does happen to real fighters frequently, even when fighting unarmored opponents).

Then for armor damage, you might subtract the armors hardness from total damage (before the crit multiplier is applied) when a crit is confirmed. Also use the "damaging objects" and "Broken" condition rules just as you did for weapon damage.

 

[N'raac]

Just like criticals, fumbles ultimately work to the PC's detriment.

The villains appear for one combat, maybe a handful for a recurring villain. If they roll a devastating fumble, or get slapped with a huge critical, there will be more opponents arriving for the next battle anyway. No biggie.

The PC's participate in vastly more combats, roll way more dice and have way more dice rolled against them. No matter how unlikely the devastating result, sooner or later it will come up against a PC. The consequence is that the PC a player has put considerable time and effort into is gone, and a new character must be created, not just an anticlimactic end to the battle against the "villain of the week".

 

[Cadence]

Certainly not recommending this, but its the earliest critical/fumble table I ever saw... from Michael E. Mayeau's "The Dragon Crown" that was run at Pacific Encounters Convention in 1978 for OD&D and published the next year by Judges Guild.

After a roll of a natural '20' roll another d20:
1-14=No critical
15=Maximum damage
16=Damage roll x2
17=Maximum damage x2
18=Damage roll x attackers level
19=Maximum damage roll x attackrs level
20=Instant death

After a roll of a natural '1' roll another d20:
7-20=Normal miss
6=Stumble, roll your dexterity or less on a d20 or fall. If you fall, each melee round you may attempt to rise by rolling your AC or less on a d10 (with special things about magic armor and getting help).
5=Weapon breaks. If a magic weapon, roll 2d6 and add your weapons plusses to the roll, if your total is 7 or less your magic weapon broke.
4=Hit nearest ally for 1/2 damage
3=Hit yourself for 1/2 damage
2=Possible critical hit on nearest ally.
1=Possible critical hit on yourself.

Seriously - a 1 in 8,000 chance of killing yourself with each attack!