D&D General Critical Role Ending

[Burnside]

I am flabbergasted that people find their lack of detailed rule understanding surprising. I rarely play with people that know the rules incredibly well. I'm in games with nearly 20 people right now ... and very few of them understand the invisibility rules. Few of them know what their spells do by heart. Few of them remember the fine details on their abilities, especially when they're conditionally relevant.

I find the group to be pretty typical of their rule mastery. Two with great knowledge (Matt an Liam), a few pretty good (Taliesin, Laura, Travia, Marisha (now)), and a couple that rely upon others (Sam and Ashley).

I think people find it surprising that they still don’t know them after playing almost weekly for five years, and making six figures playing D&D.

 

[Burnside]

When people are saying "not grasping the rules" here, they're talking about not playing their character ideally or mishandling a spell every so often not "which one is the d20?" to be clear

I love her very much, but "not grasping the rules" does kind of apply to Ashley Johnson. The show grinds to a halt pretty much every time her turn comes around in combat. It's kind of silly to assert that it's just like one or two things she doesn't get. She's obviously a very smart person; it just seems like there is something about the system and the way she processes information that don't line up.

 

[robus]

I love her very much, but "not grasping the rules" does kind of apply to Ashley Johnson. The show grinds to a halt pretty much every time her turn comes around in combat. It's kind of silly to assert that it's just like one or two things she doesn't get. She's obviously a very smart person; it just seems like there is something about the system and the way she processes information that don't line up.

She’s noted that numbers and math are not her thing, and I think that is exacerbated by having to do it on camera. I also think she’s one who has the more vivid imagination of the scene so the hard bump back to mechanics might be especially disruptive to her train of thought.

 

[Burnside]

Uk'otoa. The Chained Oblivion. Trent Ikithon. The Aeor/Luxon connection. The Vengeance of Celia Ovesso (***** in a box). Meeting Vox Machina. Yasha's Celestial Heritage. Caleb's desire to change history. There are so many storylines left hanging right now... They could run for 100 more episodes, easily, without introducing new stories.

Regarding the abrupt ending. I think that there are business and logistical reasons why the campaign was always going to wrap up in June 2021, and they stuck to that timeline despite Covid shutting them down for 4 months in 2020. So I think we effectively "lost" about 16 episodes where some of this stuff would probably have been dealt with.

That said, they spent a LOT of time in Campaign 2 just not doing very much. Matt lets the players drive the story to a large extent, but in this campaign that often resulted in sloooooooow pacing and a lot of episodes where, tbh, not much happened. However, an enormous amount of viewers obviously enjoy this style, so more power to them.

 

[Oofta]

Regarding the abrupt ending. I think that there are business and logistical reasons why the campaign was always going to wrap up in June 2021, and they stuck to that timeline despite Covid shutting them down for 4 months in 2020. So I think we effectively "lost" about 16 episodes where some of this stuff would probably have been dealt with.

That said, they spent a LOT of time in Campaign 2 just not doing very much. Matt lets the players drive the story to a large extent, but in this campaign that often resulted in sloooooooow pacing and a lot of episodes where, tbh, not much happened. However, an enormous amount of viewers obviously enjoy this style, so more power to them.

There are times when I just want to tell them to move it along already. On the other hand, they seem to be having fun so does it matter?

Which has been kind of instructive for my own home campaign. As long as it's not one person dominating the conversation, I just let people do their thing when they want to. I try to ensure that people aren't getting bored, but I do my best to not cut off RP that seems to be meandering.

Probably not everyone's style but it seems to work for my group.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I agree that there are a lot of plot threads out there that could still be followed... but the group chose one to follow after TravellerCon (taking up Vess DeRogna's job offer to go to Eiselcross) which lead them towards Lucien and the Eyes of Nine becoming the high-level finale.

Personally, I thought Matt's main intention for the high-level plotline was going to be about more of the Angel of Irons cult trying to release Tharizdun, The Chained Oblivion... there are still several chains out in the world that need to get broken to release him after all. But since the group didn't follow up on that thread, Matt still has that plot in his back pocket for Campaign 3 if he wishes.

If the expectation is that Campaign 3 will be set on the continent of either Issylra or Marquet (which allows for the possibility of another Exandria setting book to be written and produced)... finding another chain or two out there could certainly get introduced into whatever plots Matt goes with.

 

[Azuresun]

I agree that there are a lot of plot threads out there that could still be followed... but the group chose one to follow after TravellerCon (taking up Vess DeRogna's job offer to go to Eiselcross) which lead them towards Lucien and the Eyes of Nine becoming the high-level finale.

Personally, I thought Matt's main intention for the high-level plotline was going to be about more of the Angel of Irons cult trying to release Tharizdun, The Chained Oblivion... there are still several chains out in the world that need to get broken to release him after all. But since the group didn't follow up on that thread, Matt still has that plot in his back pocket for Campaign 3 if he wishes.

If the expectation is that Campaign 3 will be set on the continent of either Issylra or Marquet (which allows for the possibility of another Exandria setting book to be written and produced)... finding another chain or two out there could certainly get introduced into whatever plots Matt goes with.

I did wonder if Uk'otoa or Trent might be folded into the current arc, but it seems not now. Some of the danging arcs could be given a "dealt with for now" coda and followed up in one-shots with the group, or carry over to the next campaign. To take a random guess, Trent's crimes are exposed and he's forced to flee the Empire, which is a reasonably satisfying vengeance, but also leaves him open for use in a follow-up or campaign three, or the crystal Uk'otoa needs might be left floating around somewhere in the Astral Plane after the final fight where someone else could eventually pick it up.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the acid test for anyone who says they've run high level D&D is to ask them how many times they resorted to "[spell name] doesn't work here." The most common spells probably being Teleport, Detect Thoughts or Scrying. Even CR had to resort to "teleportation doesn't work here" in the final arc so that the PC's would actually experience the cool setting rather than teleporting to the objective.

More than anything else, the problem with high levels is the number of spells that might as well read "Remove Challenge" in their description.

It's striking how often even the pros do that, all the way back to the earliest adventures (Tomb of Horrors comes to mind).

It's obviously possible to still challenge players without (IMO) cheating and removing abilities from the board, but the game looks so different at that level, it really requires a dramatic rethink by the DM. Not enough resources out there for DMs learning the ropes for the first time -- running into the challenges of it without realizing it's going to happen is part of why some folks get frustrated, IMO.

It's another argument for why campaigns should be finite, in my mind: Everyone gets to use their cool abilities they've acquired and feel awesome, but the game doesn't get permanently deformed into being all about how an NPC can survive teleporting characters with access to commune and more.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That said, they spent a LOT of time in Campaign 2 just not doing very much. Matt lets the players drive the story to a large extent, but in this campaign that often resulted in sloooooooow pacing and a lot of episodes where, tbh, not much happened. However, an enormous amount of viewers obviously enjoy this style, so more power to them.

What, you don't think episodes where the characters participated in guided meditation or hired domestic staff was a good use of their time?

I think a lot of the show's "issues" are a misalignment of audience expectations and what the performers are interested in. D&D is obviously the biggest game in town, by far, but as seen by one-shots when they play Monsterhearts and the like, the actors seem most comfortable just doing improv with a ruleset that really puts the focus on that.

I suspect, if they could pick any ruleset to use, it would be something closer to Dungeon World or Fellowship than D&D. You can still flub the rules there, of course, but both of those games are much closer to just free-form improv with some guard rails to help adjudicate things.

 

[jgsugden]

I think the acid test for anyone who says they've run high level D&D is to ask them how many times they resorted to "[spell name] doesn't work here."

I 100% agree that this is a great 'test' to see whether someone is likely to be having success at high levels - but not for the same reason you think it is a good test.

I've run a lot of high level games. Outside of anti-magic fields in very specific areas or around very specific creatures (beholders, etc...) I have not used that technique since the 1980s.

The most common spells probably being Teleport, Detect Thoughts or Scrying. Even CR had to resort to "teleportation doesn't work here" in the final arc so that the PC's would actually experience the cool setting rather than teleporting to the objective.

More than anything else, the problem with high levels is the number of spells that might as well read "Remove Challenge" in their description.

That is 100% absolutely the intent! They are there to negate challenges that plagued PCs at lower levels. That makes the PCs feel like they are advancing and becoming more powerful. You're describing the feature - not a bug.

High level challenges are different. This is a huge oversimplification, but they tend to be more 'macro' and less 'micro'. You're faced with broader goals. Many, but not all, DMs tend to veer into morality and existential questions - "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility". "Who Are You, What Do You Want, Why Are You Here?" At levels 1 to 4 you're worries about survival in day to day encounters. At levels 5 to 10 you're being a hero and starting to influence the world around you. At levels 11 and above you are the hero of the story. You're capable of doing amazing things, and need to be allowed to do those amazing things. This is the payoff! A DM that is trying to run Keep on the Borderlands for a 15th level party failed the group.

Let's read the center paragraph in the Level 11-16 section on page 37 of the DMG together.

Dedicated spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells at 11th level, including spells that completely change the way adventurers interact with the world. Their big, flashy spells are significant in combat — disintegrate, blade barrier, and heal, for example — but behind-the-scenes spells such as word of recall, find the path, contingency, teleport, and true seeing alter the way players approach their adventures. Each spell level after that point introduces new effects with an equally large impact. The adventurers find rare magic items (and very rare ones) that bestow similarly powerful abilities.

If you deny these magics to PCs, you're not playing the game that has been provided to you to play, but are instead trying to use your 3rd grade math book to teach Trigonometry.