D&D General Critical Role Ending

Mercer would have no difficulty challenging this party through 20th level - as evidenced by him doing the same thing in campaign one ((when they had an extra-dimensional Scanlan Shorthand Magnificent Mansion.
No one is impugning Matt Mercer and there's no need to run to his defense.

The current campaign is very close to the natural ceiling of fifth edition, that's all. Yes, there are things he can (and is) doing to challenge his players right now, but the bag of tricks is a lot emptier than when it started.

I still do not get this fear that DMs have of higher levels. The game changes as PCs advance. Things that were a challenge at lower levels become trivial at higher, but there is still a tone of ways to keep the game interesting. For example: Powerful enemies understand that powerful PCs, when fully rested, are very capable - so they set the stage to deplete PC resources within a short period of time before they go in for the kill. Or There is a clock (or the PCs are concerned there is a clock) on what the PCs must achieve, requiring them to complete a task within X hours (which puts a cap on how much they can rest). Or The DM designs the final encounter with the assumption the PCs will have a chance to be fully rested and designs it to have several phases (just like Mercer did for this last storyline) giving the PCs chances to deplete those resources ... a tactic that gets more drama when the PCs have no clue there will be multiple phases. High level D&D is different than low level D&D, but it is fun when you treat it like a high level game and stop lamenting you can't use your low level tricks on the party.
Who's lamenting anything?

High level D&D is a different animal than low level D&D. It is, frankly, a lot more work for the DM (and for the players, for that matter) than low level D&D is. It doesn't much resemble traditional fantasy adventures but is closer to magical superheroes. There's a lot less to do at high levels, especially in fifth edition, which doesn't do much to fold in new challenges like domain management (which plenty of people, including me, found boring in previous editions), meaning that, eventually, you end up just a little weaker than the average demigod and given the choice of fighting the same sorts of challenges your last high level game included (different gods, different fiendish leadership, etc., but similar kinds of problems), probably bouncing around the planes, etc.

In contrast, there's a much larger variety of games you can run at low and mid-levels.

If you wanted to run a campaign resembling Game of Thrones, high-level player characters are going to fast-forward right through it (and more than King's Landing will be going up in flames, so I hope you don't want your setting to remain intact for future use). Likewise, Lord of the Rings will be a handful of short adventures at most. Even the War of the Lance will be relatively brief, although it'd last longer than the other two examples.

And for people who like that style of play, rock on.

But it's not a personal failing or a failure of DM skills for someone to decide that's not for them.

I've been running a Ptolus campaign since 2006 and have it loosely charted out through level 20. At that point, the current campaign will finally wrap and if the group wants to play another Ptolus game, it'll be with new characters in the aftermath. The campaign will likely reach the point where they're meeting one or more gods, stopping multiple back to back apocalypses and consorting with archangels. But after we reach level 20, I don't feel like trying to cap that, but rather just want to go out on a high note.
 

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I'm a pretty big fan, I won't try to hide it. But my wife and I stopped watching it a few months ago, right around the time that the "Lucien" story arc was gaining traction. It's hard to say why, I think it's a bunch of little things.
Heard a few people drifting away at the start of the Lucien arc
It's an odd arc. Not based on the current characters and steeped in world lore that hasn't really come up before. Has a "tacked on" feeling

All the previous storylines really were tied into the war plot of the existing characters and set-up ages in the past. While this one was as well to a degree, it feels odd as we didn't have regular set-up for months prior
I wonder if the so-so response and overlong aspect of this arc was a reason they decided to end things now rather than keep going and wrap Caduceus and Caleb's stories

As a GM and storyteller, I get Matt where going with this story. It makes Molly matter and not just be a narrative dead end. He wasn't just a character that got written out. Ties up that plot thread and makes his life and death significant
Matt also might have gotten lost in Molly's backstory more than the other characters. Overwritten that early on and had that plot burning in his brain after Molly died
And it's getting harder to watch Sam's advertisements at the beginning of each episode. They used to be one of my favorite parts of each episode, but we starting muting them. I don't know what changed. Sam's antics were always overwrought and campy, and that was part of their charm. Maybe the tone, I think? Or the predictability? Now I know how this all works: I know that CR depends on their sponsors to keep the lights on and they can't bite the hand that feeds them, so Sam's adverts aren't going anywhere. I just miss the days when it was just a silly song, a raunchy poem, or a simple sight-gag...not a full-blown 5-minute commercial.

Laura's merchandise announcements are getting hard to watch, too. Every week there is something new in their store (which is a good thing, I love me some D&D merch!) But then everyone ooohs and aaahs over it for five minutes, talking it up like it's the Second Coming of Pelor, and it just feels inauthentic. I mean sure, those Jester-themed socks are adorable but come on, Travis, nobody believes you preordered six pairs of them.
The preludes to the slow have gotten super long
Mostly cause they have new merch every week now and the charity. Easier just to skip until after the theme song

Easy enough to just come in 5 to 10 minutes late
 

High level D&D is a different animal than low level D&D. It is, frankly, a lot more work for the DM (and for the players, for that matter) than low level D&D is. It doesn't much resemble traditional fantasy adventures but is closer to magical superheroes.
This has been true for several editions now. Namely the WotC editions. The fantasy superheroes trope is creeping closer and closer to 1st level. Hell, you were explicitly fantasy superheroes at 1st level in 4E.
 

Heard a few people drifting away at the start of the Lucien arc
It's an odd arc. Not based on the current characters and steeped in world lore that hasn't really come up before. Has a "tacked on" feeling
I'm still not sure how we got from TravelerCon and all that to running around in the snow with time traveling wizards and a smug opposite number style archvillain NPC.

It definitely feels like things were meant to wrap up earlier than they are.
 

This has been true for several editions now. Namely the WotC editions. The fantasy superheroes trope is creeping closer and closer to 1st level. Hell, you were explicitly fantasy superheroes at 1st level in 4E.
For sure. That said, if I want to do a kingdom management game, why would I want it to be tacked onto a game where I'm roleplaying a wizard? I should just play Civilization or some other simulation that's better at it than D&D (or Pathfinder) ever were.
 

For sure. That said, if I want to do a kingdom management game, why would I want it to be tacked onto a game where I'm roleplaying a wizard? I should just play Civilization or some other simulation that's better at it than D&D (or Pathfinder) ever were.
Simple - because you want it to be an aspect of the RPG you‘re playing like Kingmaker for Paizo. You really aren’t going to get very far as an RPG with Civ.
 

I'm still not sure how we got from TravelerCon and all that to running around in the snow with time traveling wizards and a smug opposite number style archvillain NPC.

It definitely feels like things were meant to wrap up earlier than they are.
If I remember right, it was a random scrying / message from Jester.
For sure. That said, if I want to do a kingdom management game, why would I want it to be tacked onto a game where I'm roleplaying a wizard? I should just play Civilization or some other simulation that's better at it than D&D (or Pathfinder) ever were.
Some people get tired to the murderhobo lifestyle and want kingdom management, some don't. You could make the same argument about playing combat-focused fantasy superheroes in D&D vs WoW. Why bother playing D&D when WoW does combat-focused fantasy superheroes better? Because, of course, D&D does a lot of stuff WoW simply cannot do. Namely the imagination and tailored experience elements, among so many others.
 

The current campaign is very close to the natural ceiling of fifth edition, that's all. Yes, there are things he can (and is) doing to challenge his players right now, but the bag of tricks is a lot emptier than when it started.
But still has more than enough in it to run adventures for a looooooong time. Uk'otoa, Icathon, the Luxon, The Chained Oblivion.... there are a lot of high level threat cards still in the deck, and it is not being defensive to note that Mercer has shown he is capable of running an excellent game at that level.
Who's lamenting anything?

High level D&D is a different animal than low level D&D. It is, frankly, a lot more work for the DM (and for the players, for that matter) than low level D&D is. It doesn't much resemble traditional fantasy adventures but is closer to magical superheroes. There's a lot less to do at high levels, especially in fifth edition, which doesn't do much to fold in new challenges like domain management (which plenty of people, including me, found boring in previous editions), meaning that, eventually, you end up just a little weaker than the average demigod and given the choice of fighting the same sorts of challenges your last high level game included (different gods, different fiendish leadership, etc., but similar kinds of problems), probably bouncing around the planes, etc.
You ask who is lamenting, then you lament for a paragraph.
Seriously - there is a lot more to high level play than you are offering up here. It is a bit counterproductive to say there are too few options, then to start listing them and end with an etc.

There are a huge number of storylines and adventure options baked into the basic setting of D&D, as well as into the commercial campaign settings. They're there to exploit. And so much more. Vecna and the Somnovem are not exactly retreading a lot of ground. Neither of those games played like fighting through a gauntlet to the core of Hell, being in the center of a massive war between two huge nations, surviving in an alternate reality, adventuring into the Far Realm, or any of the other pinnacle adventures from any of my campaigns in the past decade.
In contrast, there's a much larger variety of games you can run at low and mid-levels.
Agreed. However, there are far more options available at high level than any DM could run through in decades of games with the same playing group. It takes about 2 years to run through a campaign from 1 to 20 in 5E if you follow guidelines and play weekly (YMMV). If you can't come up with imaginative and fun high level options with 2 years prep time.... try harder.
If you wanted to run a campaign resembling Game of Thrones, high-level player characters are going to fast-forward right through it (and more than King's Landing will be going up in flames, so I hope you don't want your setting to remain intact for future use). Likewise, Lord of the Rings will be a handful of short adventures at most. Even the War of the Lance will be relatively brief, although it'd last longer than the other two examples.
Your comment on intact settings is quite frankly, ridiculous to spout when we're in a thread about Critical Role where we saw a high level game come to a conclusion and then the easy way that it was continued in another campaign.

Further, as a DM that has run dozens of campaigns to high levels in the same campaign world, I can state that this is absolutely not a problem in the slightest. Some of those campaigns changed the world. Others did not. When the world changed, that was fun for the 'next generation' to explore.

As for wanting to run a Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, or War of the Lance at high levels - I've done political games to 20, and I certainly stole from the War of the Lance a few times in my campaigns in the past. They're fine. Lord of the Rings - well, if you want to duplicate it, no. If you want a campaign where a powerful Malignant Force controls massive armies and is trying to conquer the world, I've done that at high level as well. If you're specifically talking about a burglar throwing a ring in a Volcano ... well, no, that goes back to the discussion of not lamenting that you can't run your low level game in a high level setting.
And for people who like that style of play, rock on.

But it's not a personal failing or a failure of DM skills for someone to decide that's not for them...
When what you like or do not like is a decision, is it a failure to explore your options. REMEMBER THE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.

I've run a lot of D&D. I've had a lot of players that join my campaigns talking about how they like low and middle level play. I take that as a challenge, as a DM, to make sure they are engrossed in the campaign to the point where they don't want to stop the story, and they are enjoying their PCs so much that they would not dream of wanting to move on. While my record is not perfect, it is good enough for me to be proud. And, while my approach is not the only good way to run a higher level game, I am constantly amazed that it isn't more prevalent amongst DMs on these boards, Reddit, etc...

Letting the PCs be powerful, allowing them to use the high level abilities, allowing them to do so effectively, and allowing them to pass lower level challenges 'Like a Boss' seems like the most obvious thing in the world to me, but I see soooooooooooo (big breath) ooooooooooooooo many threads by DMs lamenting how unfun high level is because they can't X and Y like they do at lower levels, and how high level D&D can't be fun (despite countless examples that prove them wrong). And then I see so many threads by players that lament their DM ending the campaign because they 'run out of juice' just when their wizard/cleric/etc... was getting a chance to be really powerful...

There is nothing inherently unfun about high level. There are a lot of different ways to do it. If you don't enjoy it, seek out some advice on how to do it a different way. Or don't and stick to low level stuff if you like.... but if you do, understand that you're missing out on the fun side of higher level play ... and stop giving in to the fake news that high level play isn't fun - especially in a CR thread.
 


...It definitely feels like things were meant to wrap up earlier than they are.
Uk'otoa. The Chained Oblivion. Trent Ikithon. The Aeor/Luxon connection. The Vengeance of Celia Ovesso (***** in a box). Meeting Vox Machina. Yasha's Celestial Heritage. Caleb's desire to change history. There are so many storylines left hanging right now... They could run for 100 more episodes, easily, without introducing new stories.
 

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