D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[shoak1]

The only reason that the CR19 creature isn't that tough is because some DM's have the creature stand out in the middle of open fields, and only attack those with the most HP.

lets see - comparing him to a L19 fighter battlemaster, assuming feats and magic items
PC AC 24-26, Balor AC 19
PC has 242 hp (267 hp counting 2nd wind), Balor 262 hp
PC gets 3 attacks, Balor gets 2
PC gets +13 to hit so hits Balor 75% of the time, Balor gets +14 so hits 50% of time
PC does 14 dmg.on hit, Balor does 30 dmg.
so if they just went up and slugged it out, they would each kill each other on the 9th round on average.

PC gets action surge, a couple msc.feats, 6d12 dice for maneuvers...Balor gets teleport, fly, aura...thats alla bout a wash

so maybe it all comes down to the party composition and monster composition...a solo balor w/o healing is not gonna do so well against a balanced L7 party w/healing....just like a solo L19 fighter could be taken down by a balanced group of L7 baddies prolly

 

[Celtavian]

lets see - comparing him to a L19 fighter battlemaster, assuming feats and magic items
PC AC 24-26, Balor AC 19
PC has 242 hp (267 hp counting 2nd wind), Balor 262 hp
PC gets 3 attacks, Balor gets 2
PC gets +13 to hit so hits Balor 75% of the time, Balor gets +14 so hits 50% of time
PC does 14 dmg.on hit, Balor does 30 dmg.
so if they just went up and slugged it out, they would each kill each other on the 9th round on average.

PC gets action surge, a couple msc.feats, 6d12 dice for maneuvers...Balor gets teleport, fly, aura...thats alla bout a wash

so maybe it all comes down to the party composition and monster composition...a solo balor w/o healing is not gonna do so well against a balanced L7 party w/healing....just like a solo L19 fighter could be taken down by a balanced group of L7 baddies prolly

Yep. Not even close to a medium challenge for a CR19 party.

 

[Celtavian]

The only reason that the CR19 creature isn't that tough is because some DM's have the creature stand out in the middle of open fields, and only attack those with the most HP. Never minding that with 9 characters, a single CR 19 creature actually isn't that deadly of an encounter. CR is a predictive system. The farther you move away form baseline assumptions, the less able the system is to predict outcomes.

I mean, you've got [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] here ruling that you can't hold (not attack, just hold) two swords in one hand and teleport away. That will certainly impact tactics. He mentions a passive perception of 13 but ignores the 120 foot true sight, meaning that no one will ever sneak up on him. No hiding if the baddy has direct line of sight to you and with 120 foot true sight, nothing is going to not be in line of sight. So, I don't snatch the wizard, I snatch the scout and eat him first. Ok. You're going to try to sneak up on something like this? Good luck.

How do you think a Balor should be played? The most powerful demon in The Abyss able to keep armies of demons in check with his physical might is supposed to be played as some mobile skirmisher?

 

[Prism]

You're math is off because a battle-master gets 3 attacks per round for 14 per attack. He has battle-master dice to have a few rounds where he hits more. What if has Polearm Mastery and GWM allowing him to use the blunt end to hit for more damage and get some GWM hits in with Precision Strike? What if he uses Athletics to knock the balor down to gain advantage on a hit rolls? What if the battle-master is an archer with +15 to hit and Sharpshooter?

A CR 19 creature is medium encounter for four level 19 PCs, right? You're saying a single PC could kill him?

I'd say the PC would win pretty easily. I was testing out a conversion of my high level PC (Fighter) a while back and could defeat a CR 19 Balor reliably. I tried the same against a CR 20 Pit Fiend and couldn't last more than 3 rounds before dying. The CR ratings for various creatures are a bit out.

 

[Iosue]

lets see - comparing him to a L19 fighter battlemaster, assuming feats and magic items

Sounds good!

PC AC 24-26, Balor AC 19

Wait, what?

 

[shoak1]

Sounds good!


PC AC 24-26, Balor AC 19

Wait, what?

+3 full plate, +3 shield, ring of protection, defense style = ac 28, i am assuming not maxed out hence 24-26

 

[S'mon]

Yep. Not even close to a medium challenge for a CR19 party.

It seems oddly hard to challenge even mid-level PCs in 5e, except by using lots of
monsters. Stuff way over Party Level seems eminently beatable. Exacerbating this, there are 3 pages of CR 0-10 monsters but only 1 page of CR 11-30 monsters in the DMG listing by CR.

 

[Scorpio616]

Does the CR math for the Balor seem to work if it gets the bonus damage* from the crit ability every hit? Maybe the devs added that in since CRing math assumes most potential damage on a round per round basis.

*Just the extra damage granted by the ability, not including the dice anyone else gets from critting.

 

[Steven Winter]

I think rather than digressing into 32 different ways that a balor could pwn or get pwnd by PCs of such and such level, perhaps identifying other poorly rated monsters in the MM might be a better endeavor.

I've also had a CR 15 mummy lord humiliated by level 7 characters. It doesn't matter how many cool abilities it has (and it does have some doozies), 97 hit points + vulnerability to fire means it's going down hard. Nowhere near a CR 15 challenge.

Steve

 

[the Jester]

Dont get me wrong the Balor knocked the Cleric out, the Paladin out and even got the ranger down enough she ran away.

But the barbarian was just to much, as well as the healing they used from potions and such.

Did you remember not to let the barb apply his damage resistance against the balor's attacks?