Cure Minor on self when disabled

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RD: You're still combining sentences in a way to make your point, not in the way they are written.

Originally Posted by SRD
Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (…) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying.

The SRD does not say in anyway that you do not take a hp damage after performing a standard action.

It DOES say you will be dying if you get no healing during that standard action. Even a Cure Minor Wounds gives you 1 hp and you lose it at the casting completion. Thus you are not dying.

D
 

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Patryn of Elvenshae said:
It's not meant to be smart ass. It's meant to be educational.
Strange that I don't see you on my list of professors. What might be your qualifications for teaching? :D

RD
 
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"You can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can you take full-round actions). You can take move actions without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other strenuous action) you take 1 point of damage after the completing the act. Unless your activity increased your hit points, you are now at -1 hit points, and you’re dying."

Let's completely remove the line about healing altogether... (And the stuff in paranthesis, since it isn't relevant to the debate.)

"You can only take a single move or standard action each turn. You can take move actions without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action you take 1 point of damage after the completing the act. You are now at -1 hit points, and you’re dying."

There. If that's all the rule said, I would have to concur that you do in fact take 1 damage, regardless of whether you healed yourself or not. BUT IT DOESN'T!!! The line about healing is there for a reason. Healing must be an exception to the rule.

Scenario: I'm disabled, at 0. Surrounded by 8 orcs, closing in for the kill. I decide to Fireball myself for 50 damage. SPLAT. The smoke clears, and there are cripsy fried orcs everywhere. But not me. Since that action didn't increase my hit points, I am at -1. Just like it says in the ruling, word for word...
Of course it doesn't work that way. (Even though the rule CLEARLY says I should be at -1, since I didn't increase my hitpoints. Right? Right?) Know why they don't need to tell you it doesn't work that way? Because it's too friggin obvious. Know why they don't need to tell us that if we heal ourselves our hit points will increase? Because it's too friggin obvious. Know why they DO need to mention that part about healing? Because it is an exception to the rule.

Later,
Gruns

P.S.- That stuff about the Inn and the breakfast is comparing apples to monkey wrenches.
 

I'll steer away from the over-emphasis of the "Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points blah blah blah" stuff and focus instead on this: "Healing that raises your hit points above 0 makes you fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points."

First let me lay out four interpretations I see for a disabled cleric casting cure minor wounds on himself:

A)Start the round disabled.
Cast CMW on self.
Take 1 point of damage from strenuous activity.
Receive 1 point of healing from CMW.
End round on 0 hp, still disabled.

B)Start round disabled.
Cast CMW on self.
Receive 1 point of healing from CMW.
No longer disabled.
Take 1 point of damage from strenuous activity (casting spell while disabled).
End round on 0 hp, still disabled.

C) Start round disabled.
Cast CMW on self.
Receive 1 point of healing from CMW.
Since your healing has raised your hit points above 0, you're fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.
Take your other action -- move or standard (in the case of a quickened spell) -- since you're fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.
End round.

D)Start round disabled.
Cast CMW on self.
Receive 1 point of healing from CMW.
Since your healing has raised your hit points above 0, you're fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.
End round.

Option A doesn't seem accurate, since you receive the healing as part of the casting of the spell, and the 1 point of damage comes at the completion of the task.

Option D also doesn't seem accurate if you believe that "fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points" immediately removes the disabled status and negates the effects it is currently imposing on you. Of course, you could make the argument that acting while disabled takes longer than acting normally, so you've used up your actions already and the round is then over. But that doesn't make for a consistent interpretation.

So we're left with Options B & C, and which one you take revolves around how you interpret the phrase "fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points." Now, what exactly does that mean?

While everyone has focused on the other sentence, this phrase has remained largely untouched. I've quoted dvvega below because his comments help me get to my point.

No where in the definition of Disabled do you see any mention of the condition being removed after healing, retroactively or otherwise.

The extra sentence (after whitespace) that the "side of retroactive disable removal" keep trying to refer to is not part of the disabled definition. It is only found in the combat section of the SRD because it refers to continuing to act and battle not to the disabled condition itself.

True enough. A brief perusal of other conditions reveals that about half of them include info on how the condition is removed, half do not, so I wouldn't argue that the definition of the condition is necessarily exhaustive. The combat section gives the most pertinent information to how this situation works in combat, and I'd argue that the extra information logically belongs there rather than in the glossary-like definition of conditions.

This is a seperate statement and indicates that if you can get yourself above 0 hit points after the action then you are fully functional. It is an indication that the Disabled condition is no longer in effect if you can get to positive hit points. It does not say in any way that the condition is retroactively removed.

But it does state that it is retroactively removed. It states that if you receive healing, you are "fully functional, as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points."

And if the status change is immediate, then "after the action" is not pertinent. If healing removes the disabled status and makes it as if the disabled status never affected you, then why would the lingering effect of the disabled condition -- taking a point of damage for taking strenuous activity" persist? You're disabled, you take an action, you get a point of healing, boom! you're not disabled and it's as if you never were, therefore no damage from the action.

Why else would that phrase be added? What else could it possibly mean? Is it merely stating the obvious? Because if you receive healing and get your hp above 0, then obviously you're not disabled anymore, which is a condition that results from having 0 hp. I argue that if it is included in the SRD, then it means something pertinent and serves a reason more than just stating the obvious.

But what does it mean? What does "fully functional" entail? What is the meaning of "just as if you had never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points"? If I was dead and something made me fully functional, as if I had never died, I wouldn't be dead and I also wouldn't be decomposing because I was dead. Of course, I wouldn't instantly get back the time I lost while dead, but I'd be alive and whole again.

Removing the disabled status doesn't give you back lost actions. It doesn't say you were never disabled. It says it's as if you were never disabled. No lingering effects. No damage from strenuous activity.
 

The simple reason that "retroactive" statement is in there is for the condition that someone else heals you. I'm guessing that the writers did not envisage a cleric using Cure Minor Wounds to avoid disabiilty.

However as stated previously only the writers can tell us what they meant.

D
 

dvvega said:
However as stated previously only the writers can tell us what they meant.

D

Very true....and probably until they do state what they meant by the disputed sentences means this little unforeseen quandary of a debate can go back and forth. It is a "common sense isn't common" kind of thing. :D

RD
 

atom crash said:
And if the status change is immediate, then "after the action" is not pertinent. If healing removes the disabled status and makes it as if the disabled status never affected you, then why would the lingering effect of the disabled condition -- taking a point of damage for taking strenuous activity" persist? You're disabled, you take an action, you get a point of healing, boom! you're not disabled and it's as if you never were, therefore no damage from the action.

Why else would that phrase be added? What else could it possibly mean? Is it merely stating the obvious? Because if you receive healing and get your hp above 0, then obviously you're not disabled anymore, which is a condition that results from having 0 hp. I argue that if it is included in the SRD, then it means something pertinent and serves a reason more than just stating the obvious.

But what does it mean? What does "fully functional" entail? What is the meaning of "just as if you had never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points"?

The answer to these questions is pretty obvious if you have no rules knowledge whatsoever.

Were the designers even contemplating casting CMW when disabled? Absolutely not. It never entered their minds when they wrote this.

What were they thinking?

They were basically thinking three things:

1) We have to tell people what will happen if they get to zero hit points.

Answer: They are disabled.

2) We have to tell people what will happen if they perform a strenuous action which doesn't heal them while disabled.

Answer: They start dying.

3) We have to tell people what will happen if they get healed after being disabled.

Answer: They are back to normal.


For a person who does not know the rules, these three pieces of information are critical. People read these sections and start wondering what the designers meant. They meant precisely what the sentences state without reading anything extra into them.

The problem here is when people who DO know the rules reads this. They start infering things which the designers never contemplated when they wrote it. Why? Because it is not actually written as well as it should have been. But, for a brand new person reading this, it is pretty clear. A new person does not have all of the "gaming baggage" that many of the rest of us have.


"When your current hit points drop to exactly 0, you’re disabled."

Important point #1. If you get to zero, you're disabled.


"You can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can you take full-round actions). You can take move actions without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other strenuous action) you take 1 point of damage after the completing the act."

Important point #2. You can only take a single action, but if you perform a strenuous action, you take a point of damage after completing the act. No ands, ifs, buts, or maybes.


"Unless your activity increased your hit points, you are now at –1 hit points, and you’re dying."

Important point #3. You are dying unless the strenuous activity itself (not the rule above) increased your hit points.


"Healing that raises your hit points above 0 makes you fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points."

Important point #4. If you manage to get above zero hit points, you are fully functional again. It matters not how this is accomplished, you heal yourself, someone else heals you, you rest over night, whatever. You'll note that in the PHB, this sentence is in a new paragraph and is not refering to the previous sentence AT ALL.


"You can also become disabled when recovering from dying. In this case, it’s a step toward recovery, and you can have fewer than 0 hit points (see Stable Characters and Recovery, below)."

Important point #5. You can be disabled at lower than 0 hit points if you are recovering.


Nothing more on any of these. Nothing less.

It is the act of reading more into these than what is actually written which causes the disagreements and confusion.

You may not believe me, but this is how it is. The mis-interpretations come from thinking beyond what is actually written and assuming it must mean more than it merely states.

As IF the designers even considered for a second Cure Minor Wounds when they wrote this. It never entered their minds in the ten minutes they spent writing this. They were more concerned with people understanding the concept of disabled, not how that gets affected in this one EXTREMELY obscure self healing situation.
 

RuminDange said:
So why then the exception of "Unless the action increased the disabled character's hit points"? I still don't see the reason for the exception if healing of any kind did not remove the loss of a hit point at the end. What is the point of adding it if it didn't indicate healing was an exception when performing a standard action while disabled?

Designer 1: "Okay, so we've got 'Performing any standard action deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. The character is now in negative hit points and dying.'"
Designer 2: "Well, what if the standard action was, say, casting a cure spell? Or drinking a cure potion?"
Designer 1: "Fine. 'Unless the action increased the disabled character's hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying.' Happy?"
Designer 2: "Sounds good to me."

-Hyp.
 

Hyp's got it right.

Most people would be content with the answers given by myself and others, but some people can't admit they're wrong. End result: a messy thread where the correct answer lies buried under a heap of conjecture, false statements and a lot of heated argument.

I feel sorry for the original poster.

A final note to the people who have responded to my post: As much as I hate not to respond: I'm sorry, but I'm not going to answer you individually. To do so would only decrease the signal to noise ratio even further. The answer was given in my very first post (and by others as well, of course) and any posts after that are, well, unnecessary.
 

CapnZapp said:
Hyp's got it right.

Most people would be content with the answers given by myself and others, but some people can't admit they're wrong. End result: a messy thread where the correct answer lies buried under a heap of conjecture, false statements and a lot of heated argument.

I feel sorry for the original poster.

Actually, I was pretty sure my take on it was right when I started the thread and after seeing most of the responses, I'm just as sure about it. I'm just amused how long the thread got and how upset people can get about such a minor (pun unintended) issue. What fools these mortals be!
 

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