Curious about Ruthless Ruffian

[Lojaan]

Do you think it would be over powered to allow ALL rogue builds to use clubs & maces as well light blades? And just have the Ruthless Ruffian bonus as + str mod dmg when using an attack with the rattling keyword, whilst using a club or mace?

I don't see why only RRs should get clubs & maces. Sue maces do d8, but they're +2 to hit so it evens out.

 

[James McMurray]

I don't see a problem with it. There might be some odd interactions caused by some "club only" enchantment, but none spring to mind.

 

[Rechan]

No, I don't think it's overpowered.

I think Maces/Clubs will be used with less frequency due to their proficiency bonus.

 

[Cadfan]

Lets say you're a level 1 rogue with 18 dex and 14 str. You're using a mace, and making an attack that is Rattling, Dex v ac, 1[W]+Dex.

Your total damage on a hit will be 1d8+6, average 10.5, ignoring sneak attack.

If you were an 18 strength Fighter wielding a 1d12 weapon, dealing 1[W]+Str on your typical attack, your average damage on a hit would be 1d12+4, average 10.5.

So just keep that in mind. The Ruthless Ruffian bonuses are the equivalent of giving the Rogue a large, two handed weapon, as long as they use powers with the Rattling keyword. In fact, over the long term, its better, since the damage will scale with both Dex and Str instead of just the one.

 

[DracoSuave]

Because having weapons with 1d8 in them that you don't spend feats to use gets -really- powerful once you start getting into the higher [W] ratings for powers.

 

[Vaeron]

I think this really is offset by the fact that a dagger is a +4 to hit for rogues and a club is still only a +2. A shortsword is +3 for 1d6, which is a happy medium. But taking a -2 to hit for the POSSIBILITY of doing UP TO an extra 4 damage? Anyone who'd take that deal is insane, unless they saved the club just for special occasions (dailys) against targets they're pretty sure of hitting in the first place.

 

[cmbarona]

Lets say you're a level 1 rogue with 18 dex and 14 str. You're using a mace, and making an attack that is Rattling, Dex v ac, 1[W]+Dex.

Your total damage on a hit will be 1d8+6, average 10.5, ignoring sneak attack.

If you were an 18 strength Fighter wielding a 1d12 weapon, dealing 1[W]+Str on your typical attack, your average damage on a hit would be 1d12+4, average 10.5.

So just keep that in mind. The Ruthless Ruffian bonuses are the equivalent of giving the Rogue a large, two handed weapon, as long as they use powers with the Rattling keyword. In fact, over the long term, its better, since the damage will scale with both Dex and Str instead of just the one.

Sorry, but I'm not getting the comparison. First, Rogues are strikers. They're meant to deal more damage than defenders. Second, the math you're using assumes a Ruthless Ruffian, correct? That's not the point of the OP. A more appropriate comparison would be made by comparing Ruthless Ruffians to non-RRs that are allowed to use those d8, +2 to hit weapons. Personally, I think you should be fine allowing proficiency.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Do you think it would be over powered to allow ALL rogue builds to use clubs & maces as well light blades? And just have the Ruthless Ruffian bonus as + str mod dmg when using an attack with the rattling keyword, whilst using a club or mace?

I don't see why only RRs should get clubs & maces. Sue maces do d8, but they're +2 to hit so it evens out.

Ruthless ruffians can use mace and clubs because that's their schtick.

It's not overpowered either to let wizards use greatsword but that's just not in flavor for the class.

On a more practical side, I suspect no one would select the ruthless ruffian class feature if every rogue could use maces. Most people would select the brutal scoundrel instead. Case in point being the OPs interrogation.

 

[IceFractal]

Most people would select the brutal scoundrel instead.

Well yes, but that's because the Ruthless Ruffian is pretty much a self-justifying subclass. Theme-wise, Brutal Scoundrel covers the territory just fine - the only reason for there to even be a third subclass is the dubious decision to restrict which weapons a Rogue can use.

It's not overpowered either to let wizards use greatsword but that's just not in flavor for the class.

I don't think Rogues benefit from having such a narrowly restricted "flavor". And actually, Wizards can use Greatswords, about as well as they can use most swords, which is to say "not very". They can wear armor too. It would be more like saying Wizards must all wear robes and pointy hats - "for flavor".

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, Ruthless Ruffian also empowers rogue powers with the Ruthless Ruffian entry.... which happens to be a lot of Rattling powers... which you'll take because you're Ruthless Ruffian. It's not merely the +Str that sells the Ruthless Ruffian.

Let's face it, an Assassin's Point doing 17d8 damage on a hit is not a hard sell.