D&D (2024) Current Stealth Rule Actually Works As Is. If Moving Out of Cover After Hiding Makes Enemies Immediately "Finds You", Hide Would Be Totally UNUSABLE.

[TiQuinn]

The weird thing about stealth rules is that the trouble with implementing them seems more urgent and problematic in theory when discussing them in a forum like this than it is in practice at the table. Stealth has just never ranked as one of big issues encountered in game for me.

 

[Chaosmancer]

1). The dm has ruled the pc can hide. PC rolls a 1. PC says okay I go over there and try to hide again. I’m not sure what fictional basis I have to generally deny the second attempt.

Why did he ask to hide?

Did he ask to hide because there is a guard patrol passing? He was spotted.
Did he ask to hide because he is trying to get into an area? He was spotted moving into that area.
Did he ask to hide to ambush someone? He was spotted.

There is a REASON to hide, so the failed check is related to why they were attempting to hide.

2). Even if he does deny the second attempt the player still knows he’s not hidden, so he just doesnt play stealthily.

3). And maybe most importantly, what the heck does a failed hide check look like in the fiction doing it this way. PC is already out of sight of enemies, so what happens?

They notice the PC. Maybe they leaned against their cover and knocked it over. Maybe their dramatic red cloak is flying in the breeze. It depends on the context of the situation exactly what the failed hide check looks like in the fiction.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But there’s no enemies there when the check is made. So why does making noise matter?

Why must the enemies be present when the check is made, for them to see the character when the character is near the enemies?

If I am setting up an ambush and roll for stealth, you don't have me roll again when the enemies actually appear. Mechanically, I roll once and the check is applied when the enemies are present. It doesn't matter, mechanically, if you roll when the action is taken or when the action is resolved, because in both cases, the check happens before the resolution and you can't just re-roll until you succeed.

 

[Argyle King]

Yes.
And it lasts until you make a noise, cast a verbal spell, attack, or an enemy used some special features (see invisibility) to find you.

It needs more things to break it.
Like leaving cover, or until the end of your next turn.

Leaving cover isn't currently listed as a way to lose it.

That's one of the issues discussed in the other thread. So, if my character is a pacifist mime, he hides once and stays invisible effectively forever.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why did he ask to hide?

Did he ask to hide because there is a guard patrol passing? He was spotted.
Did he ask to hide because he is trying to get into an area? He was spotted moving into that area.
Did he ask to hide to ambush someone? He was spotted.

There is a REASON to hide, so the failed check is related to why they were attempting to hide.

The hide action only determines whether you Gain the invisibility condition, not whether an enemy spotted you. If it actually did that instead there probably wouldnt be an issue.

They notice the PC. Maybe they leaned against their cover and knocked it over. Maybe their dramatic red cloak is flying in the breeze. It depends on the context of the situation exactly what the failed hide check looks like in the fiction.

Again, taking the hide action and failing doesnt mean you are seen as there’s no one present to see you per the hide action requirements when you take and fail that action.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why must the enemies be present when the check is made, for them to see the character when the character is near the enemies?

Because all failing the check in the hide action means is that you are not invisible. The hide action check doesn’t resolve wherher a nearby enemy finds you. That’s simply not its purpose.

If I am setting up an ambush and roll for stealth, you don't have me roll again when the enemies actually appear.

Right

Mechanically, I roll once and the check is applied when the enemies are present.

No. That’s not how the hide action works. If you succeed your check you are immediately granted the invisibility condition.

It doesn't matter, mechanically, if you roll when the action is taken or when the action is resolved,

But it does matter mechanically what the hide action actually does.

because in both cases, the check happens before the resolution and you can't just re-roll until you succeed.

But the resolution isn’t about whether you are found by a particular enemy. Its about whether you gain the invisible condition.

 

[Pauln6]

Because all failing the check in the hide action means is that you are not invisible. The hide action check doesn’t resolve wherher a nearby enemy finds you. That’s simply not its purpose.


Right

No. That’s not how the hide action works. If you succeed your check you are immediately granted the invisibility condition.

But it does matter mechanically what the hide action actually does.

But the resolution isn’t about whether you are found by a particular enemy. Its about whether you gain the invisible condition.

Yes but whenever you roll that check, the DM decides when it becomes relevant.

It seems to me to that the term 'unless the enemy can somehow see you' is sufficiently broad and should apply where you are standing in plain sight in bright light in front of a target at the start of their turn.

Unfortunately, the invisibility spell doesn't specify that any attempt to see you with normal/dark vision automatically fails or that the spell makes you transparent or grants you total concealment etc. So the problem seems to be more that what works for one doesn't work well for the other. All it does is state that speaking louder than a whisper doesn't lose you the invisible condition.

There is also the issue that rolling moving silently into the invisible condition means that it has lost a lot of flavour. I will probably house rule that you need to move at half speed to retain it if that is the defining factor to remaining unnoticed (sleeping enemies etc). Sneaking up on enemies inside a room is now a DC 15 stealth check. Rogues can stealth as a bonus action and use help to assist one armoured group member. If the door is closed, passive perception would be at -5 (effectively a DC10 check). Does that sound about right. Even if you fail, your enemy still can't see you or target you due to total cover but they get the chance to make a DC15 stealth roll to get the drop on you.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The hide action only determines whether you Gain the invisibility condition, not whether an enemy spotted you. If it actually did that instead there probably wouldnt be an issue.

If only the hide action was broken when someone finds you, like it states directly in the rules, then the idea of a perception check spotting someone would be obviously intentional with the hide check. Like, directly stated in the rules and everything... oh wait.

Again, taking the hide action and failing doesnt mean you are seen as there’s no one present to see you per the hide action requirements when you take and fail that action.

You can't declare you are going to hide from your internal demons, and expect the DM to allow you to roll a stealth check. If I was describing the party breaking camp in the morning and the player declared "I want to HIDE!" I would ask... why? And if they were saying "because I want to and I can", well... I don't need to justify that with a roll. And any player doing so, is clearly trying to exploit me as the DM into letting them get away with something.

Because all failing the check in the hide action means is that you are not invisible. The hide action check doesn’t resolve wherher a nearby enemy finds you. That’s simply not its purpose.

But you can't hide from nothing. Simply as a logical action, you cannot do it. Just like you can't make an attack roll against your memories, you can't hide from the nothing. You are hiding with a purpose, you don't declare actions with no purpose. Therefore, a failed roll means you failed at that stated purpose for the check. This is like arguing that a player can roll performance checks for humming a song in their head. No one is doing this.

Right

No. That’s not how the hide action works. If you succeed your check you are immediately granted the invisibility condition.

But it does matter mechanically what the hide action actually does.

But the resolution isn’t about whether you are found by a particular enemy. Its about whether you gain the invisible condition.

The invisible condition against who? Invisibility is a state of not being seen, so who is not seeing you for your to be "invisible? why would a player just declare they are trying to turn invisible for no reason, with no purpose, and no goal? Do your players often just demand to take actions that have no meaning or purpose, and I don't mean "silly gags" or something. I mean, does someone declare they want to roll athletics to lift... nothing? Do they attempt to use acrobatics to walk across... nothing? Do they use animal handling on... nothing?

Yes, the Hide action is represented by a condition called "invisible" but its purpose is to HIDE FROM SOMETHING. That is why it breaks when you are found, ie, no longer hidden.

 

[pemerton]

Well, technically, players can't keep rolling until they get a N20. Only DMs can ask players for a check, which is RAW. DMs also won't let players to Hide a a mile away if there's no reason and nothing near to Hide from, which is also RAW. In practice, this just won't happen even if we didn't houserule it.

Just to add to this: isn't everything that you say here covered by "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."

 

[pemerton]

Except with the new actions, they can. It's one of the biggest rule changes in 2024 that players can now take an action that directly results in an abiliity check both in and out of combat. Now, Influence or Search as actions don't have the absurd results of Hide, because they require specific circumstances. But RAW, Hide allows you to wake up in the morning, keep taking the Hide action behind a dresser until you Nat20, and then go about the day invisible (I obviously woulnd't rule that way, but RAW it's there).

As was asked in the other threads, can a character take the Hide action while nobody is around and gain the Invisible condition?

My understanding, from the OP and from the other thread, is that "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."

If so, even a level 1 character has roughly a 50/50 shot at free invisibility. (D20 + Dex mod + Proficiency bonus)

Well, "free invisibility" until they are found. What is this character, who is hiding behind their dresser, doing after that to avoid being found?

And if they want to spend the whole day hidden behind their dresser (maybe they're really worried about intruders discovering them) then why not?