Curse that charisma!

[Scion]

I don't think so. He might have had a very high charisma... that does not have to mean he's likable. Liches aren't either.

Nah, god wouldnt allow for a point buy that high!

This guy would have to have a huge number of points in every stat, All of them at least 20!

 

[Plane Sailing]

I just think that force of personality (Charisma) is what makes a person strong-willed (Will save), not insight, intuition, perception (Wisdom).

Just so you know you're not alone in this...

One of my very first house rules was making Cha the base for will saves, moving the "willpower" text from Wisdom over into Cha, and leaving Wisdom with the bits you mention.

Has this proven a problem in my game? Not one iota. It helps to reign in clerical power a little (as they don't have the bestest will saves automatically now) and boosts the sorcerers and bards a little. The most potentially abusive situation is with Paladins but I've had two in the campaign to date and doubling their high CHA bonus on will saves has been a feature, not a bug

Has Wisdom become a dump stat? No way! It is still useful for the all-important spot and listen, quite apart from all the divine casters.

The only change that I'd make in a future campaign is move "initiative bonus" from Dex to Wis, rolling that into the perception/intuition side of things.

[/end thread hijack]

Cheers

 

[DarkMaster]

Just so you know you're not alone in this...

One of my very first house rules was making Cha the base for will saves, moving the "willpower" text from Wisdom over into Cha, and leaving Wisdom with the bits you mention.

Has this proven a problem in my game? Not one iota. It helps to reign in clerical power a little (as they don't have the bestest will saves automatically now) and boosts the sorcerers and bards a little. The most potentially abusive situation is with Paladins but I've had two in the campaign to date and doubling their high CHA bonus on will saves has been a feature, not a bug

Has Wisdom become a dump stat? No way! It is still useful for the all-important spot and listen, quite apart from all the divine casters.

The only change that I'd make in a future campaign is move "initiative bonus" from Dex to Wis, rolling that into the perception/intuition side of things.

[/end thread hijack]

Cheers

I don't agree with that, I know a few people with a very strong outside personality that can be devasted with a few negative remarks, or that can crash easily on peer pressure. Take typical high schoolers, Some of them are highly charismatic everybody knows them, they have a lot of influence on other but as soon as somebody tell them that they don't have the guts to do the most stupid thing, they do it. Or the example of the girl that everybody likes, very succesfull, but some stranger tell her that she is not pretty and her entire world collapse.

Charisma is how the other perceive you, not how you perceive yourself. The fact that you can sell anything to anybody has nothing to do with your mental resistance. I know a few people who have no personal hability and probably go unotice all the time, but don't try to make them change their mind or influence them towards bad behavior, they know what is good for them and stick with it. Notice that sense motive skill uses wisdom, and that sense motive opposes bluff. You get the picture.

Edit: Also look at the POW I am pretty sure that there is no correllation between the fact that everybody in the units likes or fear you and your resistance to mental torture.

As for the initiative thing I could consider it, but DEX definitivaly needs to be included. Otherwise I would not be able to explain the 18DEX character how the 3DEX enemie was able to draw it's weapon faster than him.

Edit SRD:

Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings

That includes resisting effect that could distord your perception of your surronding like illusion and charm. Basically everything under the will save

Edit: The other thing I can't understand is how you explain that it is now easier to convice towards the wrong path a good priest with 20 Wis 10 CHA, then the good Sorcerer with 10 WIS, 20CHA. The sorcerer is an extremely imposing character granted, but he doesn't have strong conviction about the world surronding him, the gods, his own way of life. The cleric on the other aspect is not a particularly noticable character but he has strong conviction about world, the gods, his own way of life. He knows he is right and a very few people could convince him otherwise (In D&D term, bluff, charmed, Illusion). Does he needs to be a noticable person for that. Don't think so.

 

[Scion]

wasnt there something that someone came up with somewhere (vague I know ) about useing two stats for each save?

you took two stats, added the mods, divided by 2 and rounded down. That was your bonus to that save from ability scores.

I think it was Str and Con for fort
ref and int for ref
wis and cha for will

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't agree with that.

Your perogative, of course. You define it your way, I'll define it my way.

Cheers

 

[DarkMaster]

Your perogative, of course. You define it your way, I'll define it my way.

Cheers

Agree, but just wanted to express the view of the RAW

 

[DarkMaster]

Your perogative, of course. You define it your way, I'll define it my way.

Cheers

Also if you go with that house rule you should change sense motive(wis) to sense motive(cha) otherwise there is no coherence.

 

[DarkMaster]

This is an excellent point. The 20 Cha halfling is almost superhumanly charismatic, and has studied how best to manipulate other people through playing on their fears. The dwarf might cause a little more fear and might have studied fear, but he doesn't have the same force of personality; his manipulation attempts are more halting, clumsier. He's a back-alley knifeman, whereas the halfling is a neurosurgeon.

My favorite intimidate scene is "To the pain!" from The Princess Bride.Sure, there was a hefty dose of Bluff in that scene too, but it shows someone teasing out an enemy's fears and describing to them in horrifying detail what the consequences will be of not cooperating. Fezzik couldn't have done it.

Daniel

I agree, happy to be on your side this time

 

[The Souljourner]

If the guy can easily show off his strength and then walk angrily at the guy then that person is probably going to cower, wet themselves, and tell everything that the guy wants to hear.

He can't effectively "walk angrily at the guy". He has 6 charisma. It's like a 5 year old trying to be intimidating by throwing a glass on the floor. Are you afraid he might throw a glass at you? Sure. Doesn't mean he can get you to let him stay up another hour. Someone with 6 Charisma is practically mentally handicapped. NO amount of strength is going to make up for the fact that he just doesn't have any clue about how to manipulate people. Yes, he's obviously burly, and you probably realize he's not someone you want to face in a fight. That just means that if he attacks you, you run away. Doesn't mean you're necessarily going to tell him anything if he asks you a question.

There are lots of ways it might or might not work, but then the same could be said for any other stat including charisma (that guy is just too likeable to be intimidated by I've known people like that).

Let me reiterate what others have said High charisma does not mean likeable, and low charisma does not mean unlikeable. It's force of personality, for good or bad.

Whatever the player wants his character to be good at should have a chance of it.

You can be good at it. You just can't be as good as the person who didn't dump his Charisma. Doesn't matter what your background is, if stat X is under 10, you're dumping it. In fact, if it's under 12, you're dumping it, pretty much.

like that one huge guy that never talked, always had a grimace, and no one could beat him down. Everyone feared him. In a lot of ways that guy was the epitome of uncharismatic

Low Charisma does not equal unlikeable. This guy actually sounds charismatic, he just uses it in a way to make people dislike him.

he intimidated everyone by just 'standing' there.

Ahh, so he *didn't* have to break anything.... see? Charismatic. Just by standing there, he could intimidate people. It's not like this guy wouldn't scare the bejeezus out of you even if you hadn't seen him break a dozen cinder blocks in half.

-The Souljourner

 

[Thanee]

Also if you go with that house rule you should change sense motive(wis) to sense motive(cha) otherwise there is no coherence.

I don't get this. Why should sense motive be charisma based then?

Because it is used as a defense against certain skills?

Anyways, your view of this issue is absolutely viable and well-explained above. It's just a matter of personal taste, where to put the fine nuances of personality, I guess.

The persons you describe in your example, I'd not really see as highly charismatic. Their personalities are shallow at best. But as I said, it's more personal taste how to see this. It's definitely not an issue for me, that is so important as to change the rules, so we still use wisdom for Will saves.

Bye
Thanee