CustServ on "What is 'an attack'?"

[AntiPaladin]

I still don't see how Wall of Fire can be an attack. As stated numerous times in this thread, the only thing the spell does is create an obstacle. That is not an attack. If I light a building on fire with flint and tinder, and you run into the building and get burned, I did not attack you. If you are inside the building at the time the fire starts, I also didn't attack you.

They key is that the damage comes from the environment, as opposed to somebody rolling a D20 and choosing a target.

 

[eamon]

Does a wizard who's sustaining greater invisibility become visible when he conjures a wall of fire? What if he casts a cloud of daggers at an empty space?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does a wizard who's sustaining greater invisibility become visible when he conjures a wall of fire? What if he casts a cloud of daggers at an empty space?

If an attack roll is necessary to define an attack, then no in both cases; Wall of Fire does not use attack rolls, and Cloud of Daggers targets creatures in the area, of which there are none.

If an Attack entry is sufficient to define an attack, then no in the case of Wall of Fire, and yes in the case of Cloud of Daggers; despite there being no targets in the area and thus no attack rolls made, Cloud of Daggers is an attack.

If a "Wizard Attack X" designation is sufficient to define an attack, then yes in both cases - both are Attack powers, and thus attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[Ginnel]

Martyr's Blessing
----------------------
Paladin Utility 2 - You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally

Immediate Interupt, Close Burst 1

Trigger: an adjacent ally is hit by a melee or ranged attack

Effect: you are hit by the attack instead
-----------------------

Ok we have here a nice little paladin power, which will protect an ally.

We also have hit and we have attack here.

Hit is that if the power has a hit line in it and uses it? Attack is that if the power has an attack line in it and is using it.
I would take it as both of these are true if the power damaging the ally has either the melee or ranged keyword and attack and hit line this power can trigger.
If it doesn't have either of them it won't

Cloud of dagger take damage if you start the turn in the effect, its the effect part of the power so no attack role no hit.

Cloud of dagger being cast at some, ranged yup, attack yup hit yup, bang the power triggers.

Wall of fire, ranged yup, attack nup, hit nup, this power doesn't trigger.

Fiery shroud, melee/ranged nup, attack yup, hit yup, this power doesn't trigger.

Seems like its working correctly to me in lines with the paladin throwing him/herself in front of the ally.

Although thinking about it what if a power does damage on a miss the paladins power doesn't then trigger if we take a hit as being the hit line? hmmm

 

[Andur]

[quote='PHB 269]When you attack, you make an attack roll to determine whether your attack hits your target.

...

Each character has a number of attacks to choose from, including a basic attack (page 287). The exact attacks you have available depend on which powers you select for your character (see Chapter 4).

...

MAKING AN ATTACK
All attacks follow the same basic process:
1. Choose the attack you’ll use. Each attack has an attack type.
2. Choose targets for the attack (page 272). Each target must be within range (page 273). Check whether you can see and target your enemies (page 273).
3. Make an attack roll (page 273).
4. Compare your attack roll to the target’s defense (page 274) to determine whether you hit or miss.
5. Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276).
[/quote]

Notice under making an attack it says ALL ATTACKS, thus if something does not follow the process it is not an attack.

[quote='PHB 274]To determine whether an attack succeeds, you make an attack roll.[/quote]

[quote='PHB 276]You resolve an attack by comparing the total of your attack roll (1d20 + base attack bonus + attack modifiers) to the appropriate defense score. If your roll is higher than or equal to the defense score, you hit. Otherwise, you miss.[/quote]


Bottom line, unless you make an attack roll against a target, you are not attacking. This creates some wierd things with powers like Hunger of Hadar which is not an attack until it is sustained. But it is RAW and I believe it is also RAI...

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

So this means a Wizard who has been divine challenged can Wall of Fire the Paladin's friends with impunity because he is making no attacks against targets that aren't the Paladin.

That makes Wall of Fire (and other non-attack attaks like Armor of Agathys and Blade Barrier) great screw-yous to Paladins!

 

[eamon]

Another corner case: combine (Greater) Invisibility with the fighter stance Rain of Steel:

Assuming an "attack" is simply an attack power; then if you become invisible and later activate the (level 5 attack power) Rain of Steel, you would become visible, but if you first activate Rain of Steel and then become invisible...

Well, Rain of Steel simply deals 1[W] damage to each adjacent opponent without any attack roll, or, for that matter, any action at all - the opponent merely needs to start its turn adjacent to you and you need to be able to make opportunity attacks.

(Edit for completeness: and of course, if an attack actually requires an attack roll, then you can use the stance rain of steel while invisible without becoming visible, no matter the order in which the abilities are activated)

I see the fun already; stick the invisible pit-fighter in the hornets nest, then run and wait for him to whack everything. Ideally, he'd have some easy healing ability - like the regeneration provided by the improved stance "unyielding avalanche", and some useful non-attack standard actions to keep him busy.

 

[Andur]

You both are correct. Course the Fighter is pretty ineffective if they are relying on a passive ability...

 

[DracoSuave]

If the Paladin is relying on Divine Challenge to control an artillery monster and then not staying out of the way of other players, then clearly, the Paladin is an idiot anyways, and deserves the Wall of Fire treatment.

Just sayin'.


Oh and to be technical:

Wall of fire, ranged yup, attack nup, hit nup, this power doesn't trigger.

Wall of fire isn't a ranged power, it's an area power.

 

[eamon]

You both are correct. Course the Fighter is pretty ineffective if they are relying on a passive ability...

Of course, you only need to have a single fighter daily ability: this would be perfectly achievable by a paladin, for instance, or a cleric. And of course, a paladin can technically mark without being or becoming visible...

A cleric ranged support build with high-wis and pit-fighter might use such a stance once a day in particularly dangerous combats to grant himself time to buff all his allies while dealing significant damage as a side effect - all the while remaining invisible (if the wizard sustains the invisibility, that is).

In any case, it's just an odd corner case rather than a game-breaking exploit.