CustServ on "What is 'an attack'?"

[zgrose]

The attack was avoided. If you walk or are moved into the Effect, you're gonna eat the damage.

So what you *really* meant to ask CSR was: Does the Effect of a Power still apply to someone that used Evasion to avoid damage from the Power's attack. To which I'm pretty sure they will say "Yes, you are still subject to a power's effects regardless of whether you Evaded the initial attack or were missed by the attack."

 

[zgrose]

Amen, Mistwell. That seems to be the pattern here and on the WotC boards.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The attack was avoided. If you walk or are moved into the Effect, you're gonna eat the damage.

If you walk into the Effect, nothing happens... the area created by Elemental Maw only deals damage if you're pulled into it, not if you walk into it.

So what you *really* meant to ask CSR was: Does the Effect of a Power still apply to someone that used Evasion to avoid damage from the Power's attack. To which I'm pretty sure they will say "Yes, you are still subject to a power's effects regardless of whether you Evaded the initial attack or were missed by the attack."

Wall of Fire only has an Effect, and they said Wall of Fire is an attack.

If Wall of Fire is an attack, then Elemental Maw is an attack, and "to avoid damage from the power's attack" is imprecise... you don't avoid damage from the power's attack, but from the attack, which is the power.

The attack - Elemental Maw - can deal damage in three ways - Hit, Miss, and Effect. If you are missed by the attack - Elemental Maw - then you take no damage from the attack - Elemental Maw.

If, however, 'the attack' is not Elemental Maw, but rather the Attack - Hit - Miss component of Elemental Maw, then it works as you describe... the damage from the Effect is separate from the damage from the attack, and not prevented by Evasion. But that also means that Wall of Fire, lacking an Attack - Hit - Miss component, is not an attack, nor does it include an attack, despite being an Attack Power.

Either Wall of Fire is an attack and Elemental Maw is an attack (in which case Evasion protects from both Miss and Effect damage on a miss); or Elemental Maw includes an attack and Wall of Fire does not include an attack (in which case Evasion protects from Miss damage but not Effect damage on a miss).

Mixing and matching doesn't work.

-Hyp.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I whole heartedly agree Mistwell, but I don't think that was what Hyp was really trying to ask zgrose. He was trying to ask about how the designation of "attack" interacts with the ruleset. That is a lot harder to ask as an non-open ended question.

 

[Mistwell]

I whole heartedly agree Mistwell, but I don't think that was what Hyp was really trying to ask zgrose. He was trying to ask about how the designation of "attack" interacts with the ruleset. That is a lot harder to ask as an non-open ended question.

I don't think Hyp did it intentionally. But, I think it could have been asked MUCH better. In the very least, listing the known ramifications of each answer would have been helpful up front.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I agree again. Difficult question. They seem to be going for a M:tG like ruleset, but haven't worked out the kinks. Keywords and defined terms are everyting in M:tG, and 4e seems to be heading that way, but lacks the definitions and internal consistency.

 

[zgrose]

If you walk into the Effect, nothing happens... the area created by Elemental Maw only deals damage if you're pulled into it, not if you walk into it.

Missed that, ok. Doesn't change my answer. See below.

Wall of Fire only has an Effect, and they said Wall of Fire is an attack.

Well, actually the *power* says its an attack right in the header.

If Wall of Fire is an attack, then Elemental Maw is an attack, and "to avoid damage from the power's attack" is imprecise... you don't avoid damage from the power's attack, but from the attack, which is the power.

The attack - Elemental Maw - can deal damage in three ways - Hit, Miss, and Effect. If you are missed by the attack - Elemental Maw - then you take no damage from the attack - Elemental Maw.

If, however, 'the attack' is not Elemental Maw, but rather the Attack - Hit - Miss component of Elemental Maw, then it works as you describe... the damage from the Effect is separate from the damage from the attack, and not prevented by Evasion. But that also means that Wall of Fire, lacking an Attack - Hit - Miss component, is not an attack, nor does it include an attack, despite being an Attack Power.

Either Wall of Fire is an attack and Elemental Maw is an attack (in which case Evasion protects from both Miss and Effect damage on a miss); or Elemental Maw includes an attack and Wall of Fire does not include an attack (in which case Evasion protects from Miss damage but not Effect damage on a miss).

Mixing and matching doesn't work.

-Hyp.

I'm missing something: If you Evade the Elemental Maw, you aren't pulled. If you aren't pulled, how are you taking the Effect?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, actually the *power* says its an attack right in the header.

In which case, Elemental Maw's effect deals no damage to a missed opponent who has Evasion.

I'm missing something: If you Evade the Elemental Maw, you aren't pulled. If you aren't pulled, how are you taking the Effect?

That's why I specified that another character used a power to Pull you into the area.

If you prefer, we can use Righteous Inferno (Paladin Attack 19) instead... enemies who start their turn in the zone take the effect damage, so the Pulled question is moot.

-Hyp.

 

[zgrose]

If you prefer, we can use Righteous Inferno (Paladin Attack 19) instead... enemies who start their turn in the zone take the effect damage, so the Pulled question is moot.

OK!

So lets see... Its an attack, check. Against reflex, check. So you Evade and don't take the 1/2 damage nor do you grant CA, check. I think we're all in agreement so far?

So the attack is over and you are in the AoE on your turn and blam! you take 1d10 and grant CA. Sounds right to me. Ask CSR, I think they'll agree that if you're in a Righteous Inferno that you initially Evaded, you'll take the damage.

You Evaded the attack and ignored the miss damage. All the elements of Evasion seem to be satisfied.

 

[theNater]

So it all comes down to what the technical definition of an attack is. Check page 26 in the PHB. The box titled ATTACK. I will reproduce the relevant portion here.

To make an attack, roll 1d20 and add...

A slight rephrase: if you make an attack, then you roll 1d20 and add appropriate modifiers.

The rules of logic then say that if you do not roll 1d20 and add appropriate modifiers, then you have not made an attack.

Therefore Wall of Fire, which does not include a d20 roll, is not an attack. Therefore an attack power is not necessarily an attack.