D&D General D&D 2024 does not deserve to succeed

[Corinnguard]

Are they racing; or merely coasting?

"We're racing so fast; we appear to be coasting." "It's a Perception thing."

 

[Clint_L]

That's not an argument of quality at all. Just an admission of wanting to go with the status quo for the sake of it.


You already have sunk costs, and have to spend WAY more money, by going along with 2024 D&D. Your older D&D books are invalidated and you now have to buy many more to keep up.

So what actually is there to be "invested" in here, that can't instead be done with a better product? It's already a new ruleset that has to be adopted. You're simply choosing to adopt the rules of a game that happens to be from the same company. It's like if a restaurant started selling chicken nuggets instead hamburgers, while deleting all the coupons you received from buying hamburgers, and you blindly insisting the chicken nuggets must be the best thing to eat, since you formerly bought hamburgers there.


This is you putting words in someone's mouth, yet again. Also, people don't know what they like best if they don't experience alternatives. If people truly feel D&D is the best, having come to that conclusion from playing many other games, then sure. But it's frequently the case that people have only experienced a sliver of what exists.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I wrote that you are in effect calling people stupid sheep.

Do you not see that you are doing that? When you state, as you have reiterated here, that people are simply going with D&D because we don't know better than to just "go with the status quo for the sake of it", what exactly do you think you are implying, other than that we are stupid sheep? Do you not see that your framing is deeply insulting?

Well, it is. Which is why many, many people have responded negatively.

For your information, I am a professional with a masters degree. I have played many, many different TTRPGs in my forty+ years of serious gaming. I even have a publication credit for being the principal designer of an educational game (Up the Creek: The Salmon Survival Game). So I'm not some rube who stumbled across D&D and has never looked elsewhere. I think similar goes for most folks on this forum.

I am also familiar with the DC20 system. I very much enjoy the Dimension 20 crew, and appreciate their perspective on it, and I've kept track of it's development, as I do with many TTRPGs.

So maybe, just maybe, people disagree with you for reasons other than being ignorant. Maybe we are just as smart, just as informed as you, and have still come to different conclusions. That's how opinions work.

 

[Micah Sweet]

games that don't fail aren't heartbreakers IMO.

Then you can't just call any D&D-adjacent game a fantasy heartbreaker unless and until it fails.

 

[mamba]

people don't know what they like best if they don't experience alternatives. If people truly feel D&D is the best, having come to that conclusion from playing many other games, then sure. But it's frequently the case that people have only experienced a sliver of what exists.

pretty ironic given

I backed DC20. Since doing that, I've heard some of Dungeon Coach's design ideas. The guy has been in the hobby for less than 5 years. He's basically played no games besides 5e D&D (maybe he's looked at PF2).
Routinely when he's talking to other content creators he's like "oh, I haven't heard of 13th Age" and "what's Savage Worlds."

There is a reason why I wrote earlier that I am more interested in what more experiences designers are doing and not in DC20, didn't realize it was that bad however

 

[Clint_L]

I will agree that D&D does benefit greatly from inertia. Being by far the most popular and established brand of fantasy TTRPG gives it a number of advantages aside from the underlying quality of the game, which is largely subjective.

1. Sunk costs. This is not just, or even primarily financial. The financial aspect is important, though, since if I walk away from D&D I am walking away from a small small fortune in adventure and setting guides, etc. However, the more substantial sunk cost is in terms of time and knowledge. I've internalized D&D rules over many years, but more importantly, so have my players, who are not nearly as interested in TTRPGs as I am. If I tell my home game that I would like to switch to a new system to still do basically the same thing, play a fantasy TTRPG, they probably will decline. Certainly my spouse would.

This is why folks tend to stick with the system that they have grown into and heavily invested in. For example, if you've spent years playing and modding 1e with your group, there is a pretty significant incentive to stick with it. If you're still having fun, why swap?

2. Infrastructure. I love DnDBeyond. I run a lot of games for different groups, and it saves me a ton of time. I cringe at the thought of trying to run D&D Club at my school without it. And it also lets me share all the books with my players, which makes it a lot easier to attract and keep players. And that's not even talking about all the other accessories and 3PP that are available for D&D.

3. Population. Millions of people know D&D, and just about everyone has heard of it, so many have at least a passing interest in checking it out. This confers a lot of advantages when it comes to attracting players, scheduling games, and so on.

4. Longevity. D&D is pretty much permanent at this point. Even if Hasbro imploded tomorrow, D&D would live on. I can be confident that I will continue to be able to play D&D for the rest of my life, should I so choose. DC20, not so much. I can't tell you how many fantasy TTRPGs have come and gone over the 50 years of D&D's lifespan.

As for quality: I think D&D is an excellent game. DC20 might be even better, or it might be worse. But given all the other factors, I don't have much incentive to switch. If D&D wasn't fun and I still wanted to play a fantasy TTRPG, then of course I would look elsewhere. More likely is that I get tired of the medieval fantasy genre altogether and play something else for a time, as has happened for long stretches in the past.

 

[mamba]

People only think Vaping is healthier than smoking because there is decades less research and documentation on it.

that, and at least there is no passive vaping

 

[mamba]

During 4e, that would have been PF1. As for today, it's a wait and see as D&D and the other 5e-adjacent RPGs continue their race for the number one title.

PF1 was 'just' 3e continued, the heartbreaker was 4e

 

[mamba]

They don't always fail. You don't have to be as popular as WotC's game to be a success.

I dearly wish WotC understood that.

pretty sure they understand it, but why would they aim to be less successful....

 

[KYRON45]

PF1 was 'just' 3e continued, the heartbreaker was 4e

So heartbreaker is just a dumb expression. Got it.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

All information seems to indicate that most of us here have played more non-D&D TTRPGs than the designer of DC20 has. That rather undermines the very thrust of the OP.