D&D General D&D 2024 does not deserve to succeed

[Retreater]

Seems pretty clear now that the whole thread is intended to troll us, and shame on me for responding. Well done, I guess?

We've had such a good time, though?
Discussions like this online rarely change anyone's mind, but they're helpful for me to reassess my own stances as I participate.

 

[Belen]

Yes, many games are. Down with D&D 5E!! Say NO to 2024! The dungeon is rancid and the dragon is plastic! Vote for REALNESS this year! Change starts here, make the world better for your children!

So.....I do not have my DC20 books yet but you have succeeded in my immediately wanting to sell them.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

So.....I do not have my DC20 books yet but you have succeeded in my immediately wanting to sell them.

How much do you want to not send them to me?

 

[mamba]

s. I didn't know that WoTC created 4e because of WoW.

it apparently was squarely aimed at WoW, but with no directive to copy anything exactly from it, just have it as inspiration.

The designers even played WoW, though Heinsoo said that after playing two chars to level 20, he could not take WoW any more and stopped playing.

Sounds like they did not have many direct instructions otherwise, he decided that since 3e was simulationist there was no reason to create another simulationist version and went full gamist instead (I think it was him, was only listening to the thing, not actually watching / seeing who spoke)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not necessarily. A game should be fun more than it is consistent or a slave to verisimilitude IMO.

But if it’s too jarringly unversimilitudenous it breaks immersion and spoils the fun.

The trick is finding the right balance, and is going to be different for everyone.

 

[mamba]

And they were right. But they leaped in the wrong direction to get them back. It’s social interaction that D&D can do better than a computer, not combat mechanics, and that calls for an accessible, rules-lite system.

I tend to agree with this

They had the same product that WotC discarded as losing players to WoW.

yes, and yet it had revived D&D, and 4e did not stop the bleed either. The point is, the market shrinking was not because there were two competing systems, the market was already shrinking when there was only 3e

The hobby can’t support multiple similar sized products, that was amply demonstrated in the early 80s.

I would not say that TSR demonstrated anything other than that no one in charge of TSR should be running a business

WotC are struggling to turn a profit even with total market dominance.

today? A 50% RoI tells a very different story…

And even if it could, that would just leave two big toy companies making commerce-driven decisions for people to hate. Double the companies, double the hate.

but neither can rest on their laurels, so better overall

 

[Clint_L]

We've had such a good time, though?
Discussions like this online rarely change anyone's mind, but they're helpful for me to reassess my own stances as I participate.

Fair point. I always feel a bit disappointed in myself when I respond to a troll, though. Embarrassed. I'm a sucker for trolling because my brain doesn't work that way and I tend to take words at face value. I automatically assume that the person I am communicating with is sincere.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

yes, and yet it had revived D&D, and 4e did not stop the bleed either. The point is, the market shrinking was not because there were two competing systems, the market was already shrinking when there was only 3e

Yes, it was, because 3e was the most complex, least accessible version of D&D so far.

I would not say that TSR demonstrated anything other than that no one in charge of TSR should be running a business

Most people who run businesses shouldn’t be in charge of running businesses. People tend to end up in those positions because of luck or inheritance, not ability.

but neither can rest on their laurels, so better overall

WotC is competing with directly with computer games and social gatherings. They are not in a position to rest on their laurels. They blunder about and make bad decisions, bad decisions, but that is the nature of business - it’s not a science that you can predict, you blunder about in the dark in the hope you will eventually get it right.

And then there is the threat that a serious competitor like Mattel or Disney releases its own rival game, which was at the core of the OGL fiasco - intellectual property law is weak when it comes to protecting game rules.

 

[mamba]

Yes, it was, because 3e was the most complex, least accessible version of D&D so far.

I though you said it was because of WoW in your previous post

Most people who run businesses shouldn’t be in charge of running businesses. People tend to end up in those positions because of luck or inheritance, not ability.

doesn’t change that many do a better job than anyone who ran TSR and that I would not take any other lessons away from what happened there

WotC is competing with directly with computer games and social gatherings. They are not in a position to rest on their laurels.

there is the indirect competition of people having limited amounts of money to spend, and there is the direct competition in the business you are in. The latter is much more relevant when it comes to not resting on your laurels.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I though you said it was because of WoW in your previous post

Both were factors. Oversimplifying is a common mistake. The real world is messy.

doesn’t change that many do a better job than anyone who ran TSR and that I would not take any other lessons away from what happened there

I don’t agree. They got the game off the ground from nothing - largely without relevant training. I think they did well to get as far as they did before running into problems.