D&D 3.5 Orcs: back to Tolkien?

[Derulbaskul]

Pre AD&D? There were only law and chaos, then. Elves were lawful and orcs chaotic, since in OD&D, law=good and chaos=evil.

The blue book.

The predecessor to the Basic red book. All nine alignments; three character levels. Orcs were CE. Do I have to scan and post the page?

 

[Corinth]

It wouldn't hurt if you did.

 

[Zander]

The only Frazzetta pictures of orcs that I'm aware of look nothing like either the Warhammer orcs or the movie LOTR orcs. http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/frazzetta/orcs.jpg

The other illustration by Frazzetta, which unfortunately I can't find online, is exactly the same as some of the orc minis produced by Citadel (part of GW) in the early 1980's. If, like me, you have GW orc minis from that time to the present, you can clearly trace the inspiration from Frazzetta to today's orcs by GW. Even if you don't have the minis, it shouldn't be that hard to imagine: both have sharp, jutting teeth, prominent nostrils, small eyes, heavy foreheads, a stooping posture and muscular physiques.

Why in the world would you say that? Warhammer orcs have extremely exaggerated features, like green, hairless apes, only even more exaggerated even than that. They look nothing at all like the TTT Uruk-hai.

GW orcs are certainly more cartoonish, but are otherwise quite similar. When Lurtz is 'born' in the TTT, you can clearly see his sharp, jutting teeth, prominent nostrils, small eyes, heavy forehead, muscular physique and larger-than-human size. I believe he even has pointed ears (though I could be mistaken about that). True, Lurtz doesn't stoop like a GW orc or have overly long arms and short legs, but the similarities are apparent nonetheless.

Again, the LOTR movie versions look nothing like what you suspect is the inspiration for them. Where your getting these suspicions is completely beyond me. In fact, it's particularly ironic given that Games Workshop also make the Lord of the Rings miniatures game, so you can really see the contrast between the LOTR orcs and goblins and the Warhammer orcs and goblins.

The goblin waurg-rider who taunts Legolas about Aragorn's fall from the cliff in TTT (which is one of the goblins you see best in the film) looks extremely similar to some of the plastic goblin wolf-riders produced by GW complete with large nose and bald head.

What orcs? D&D orcs have never been described as green-skinned, nor have Tolkien's orcs. Goblins in form in D&D also look nothing like Warhammer goblins, which have exaggerated, almost clownlike anatomies which are fine (especially for Blood Bowl, IIMO, which is a silly game to begin with) but nothing at all like anything in either D&D or Tolkien.

Please re-read my post. I clearly stated that the last paragraph was just my personal view of how orcs and goblins look like. I never claimed, here or anywhere else, that D&D orcs are described as green-skinned, nor have I ever said that D&D goblins look like GW ones. By all means disagree with me, but please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[MerricB]

The blue book.

The predecessor to the Basic red book. All nine alignments; three character levels.

Actually not.

The Holmes edition of the Basic set (the very first Basic D&D!) was based off the original three booklets + supplements, and was meant as a lead in to AD&D, which Gary was writing at the time.

The enhanced alignment system (which I believe was first posited in an issue of TSR or Dungeon) was a simplified version of the system that made it into AD&D.

Where original D&D had just Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic, and AD&D would have the nine alignments, Holmes' version of Basic D&D had only FIVE alignments:

* Lawful Good
* Lawful Evil
* Chaotic Good
* Chaotic Evil
* Neutral

Orcs, making their way from the "Chaotic" of original D&D to the "Lawful Evil" of AD&D were caught in an in-between state and called "Chaotic Evil" by Holmes.

Later editions of the Basic rules would return to the oD&D system of Moorcockian alignments, and orcs would be Chaotic in that system.

Cheers!

 

[MonsterMash]

To add to the D&D history lesson that Gez started:

In OD&D there was a strong Tolkien influence with Hobbits, Ents, Orcs until the Tolkien estate required Ents to become Treants and Hobbits Halflings. Orc being a genereic term could remain. There is no physical description of Orcs in the OD&D White Box set. Alignment for Orcs is Chaotic (no good/evil in those days)

Basic D&D had again little physical orc description and a CE alignment.

In the 1e Monster Manual the pig faced orcs turn up, with an alignment of Lawful Evil and a description of: 'Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration - brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen - highlights their pinkish snouts and ears. Their bristly hair is dark brown or black'

The Warhammer/Citadel Orcs may have gone down the huge chins and green skin route to avoid being too close to D&D after Games Workshop had lost the licence for D&D in the UK to TSR's UK subsidiary.

Personally in my Campaign Orcs appear more like debased humans rather than pigs, but they do not have green skins! Though my campaign is more based on Leiber/Howard type fiction than JRRT.