D&D 3.5 Orcs: back to Tolkien?

[Omand]

Not necessarily. Again, the phrase "half-orcs and goblin-men" doesn't really make sense unless it basically means "manlike orcs and/or orclike men." Jackson just seems to have taken the phrase a bit out of context.

The latter.

Ruleslawyer,

You are mistaken on the status of Sauron. It is mentioned several times (quite clearly) in the Silmarillion that Sauron is/was a Maia. He was a Maia of Aule, and supposedly the greatest of the Maia who joined Morgoth/Melkor.

Fore reference, look at the index of the Silmarillion under "Sauron".

Cheers

 

[Desdichado]

thanks for the detailed explanation, JD. i've read the Silmarillion and the first couple books of Lost Tales, but i never picked up the History of Middle-Earth series. i think the Silmarillion is what i was remembering.

Actually, the Lost Tales are the first of the History of Middle-earth series, so you've already started down the dark path. Of course, there's 10 more volumes to go...

do you mean Sauron was one of the Maiar who formerly served Aule (as i thought i recalled), or that he was literally a dwarf -- the people that Aule created?

The former, definately. Not the latter.

 

[shilsen]

do you mean Sauron was one of the Maiar who formerly served Aule (as i thought i recalled), or that he was literally a dwarf -- the people that Aule created?

The latter.

The former, definately. Not the latter.

What Joshua Dyal said. IIRC, Sauron's original name was Gorthaur the Cruel. Not so coincidentally, the Maia who came to Middle-Earth as Saruman was also a follower of Aule.

 

[storyguide3]

Peter Jackson didn't wanted to imply the idea of cross-breeding with orcs and chose to make them mud beasts, but well.

He does more than imply it, he states it through Gandalf in a conversation with Elrond prior to the Council in FotR. Gandalf informs Elrond that "Saruman's treachery is greater than you know. He has crossed orcs with goblin men through foul craft. He is breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard..."

Whatever the visualization of the "birth", it is clearly stated in Jackson's film that the uruk-hai are the result of a cross-breeding experiment of some sort.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Ruleslawyer,

You are mistaken on the status of Sauron. It is mentioned several times (quite clearly) in the Silmarillion that Sauron is/was a Maia. He was a Maia of Aule, and supposedly the greatest of the Maia who joined Morgoth/Melkor.

Aagh! This is what happens when I go dyslexic...

Yes, of course. Sauron is of the Maiar of Aule (as, incidentally, is Saruman, appropriately enough). For some reason, I confused former and latter. Ick.

Not something that my JRRT-geek self normally would have missed, folks!

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

The most flagrant exemple is the full-page battle illustration on page 125 of The Complete Warrior, showing a horde of orcs rushing a phalanx of dwarves. I couldn't help but note how much those orcs reminded me of the hordes of Helm's Deep's invaders.

Orcs have looked like this (at least) since the inception of 3E. They look like this in much of the conceptual art before 3E was finished. This predates Jackson's LOTR movies, so who is copying who?
What is flagrant here is the way you've ignored the timeline.

And then there's the cover for "The Thousand Orcs"... If that's not a LOTR movie Rip, I don't know what is.

Showing a hero hopelessly surrounded by a horde of enemies is a staple of fantasy art, not to mention of D&D art.
I take that back, it's a staple of any kind of art that shows conflict; be it the soldier from Doom surrounded by demons, Ash surrounded by Deadites, a WWII soldier surrounded by Nazis, a comic book hero surrounded by villains... The list goes on and on. A hero just isn't a hero unless he/she is surmounting the insurmountable. Showing the odds stacked against them heightens tension and the sense of heroism.

...I can only assume this means Wizards is pushing it's Orcs back to the Tolkien "Dark Hordes of Vicious Minions" Model, rather then the "Green Skinned Badasses" of things like Warhammer and Warcraft...

Assuming is all fun and games until someone loses an eye; that's the first lesson of posting on a message board.
Do the illustrations in the original LOTR books show orcs similar to those in the movie? Yes? No? Maybe?
Even the pictures that artists have done over the years portraying Tolkien's orcs are merely their own interpretation of his description, not Tolkien's own work. Some of the same people that have done art for official LOTR books have probably done art for D&D and vice versa. We all draw from the same well of inspiration.
The fact is that the orcs from Peter Jackson's movies are just the inbred children of the artists inspired by Tolkien's work, and the Trilogy's bastard love child, D&D. With that in mind, can anyone really point fingers at who is ripping who off?
It is said that there is nothing new under the sun, yet at the same time it can be argued that if you have not yet seen, heard or experienced something, then it is new. So is every new idea a theft? Is it new at all?
I once overheard two people arguing in high school over whether CDs had better audio quality than cassettes. When they asked a third party his opinion the guy responded, "Dude. That's a nerd argument."
All three were schmucks, but the third party had a valid case. I doubt anyone here would be scared away by the nerdiness or geekiness of an argument, but this particular one is pointless. Tolkien isn't going to throw off the shackles of death and demand credit for the way orcs looked in D&D 3.0, WoTC isn't going to sue Peter Jackson because his orcs looked like theirs, and he's not going to sue WoTC for the pictures of orcs in the Complete Warrior and on the cover of The Thousand Orcs. Until one of those things happens no one is going to give any of you a definitive answer on who gets all the credit.
So why waste your time on it?

The change to Halflings from AD&D to 3.0 was a step in the right direction IMHO.

This is probably my number one favorite racial change that 3E brought about. The pudgy little hobbits that were portrayed by artists pre-3E were lame. Even Peter Jackson decided against this long-time portrayal. The old ones looked about as heroic as a Hummel figurine.

 

[Desdichado]

Orcs have looked like this (at least) since the inception of 3E. They look like this in much of the conceptual art before 3E was finished. This predates Jackson's LOTR movies, so who is copying who?
What is flagrant here is the way you've ignored the timeline.

Who's copying who? Orc costume design, not to mention most of the principle photography for the movies, was well underway when 3e came out. Besides, LOTR movie orcs and the pictures of 3e orcs have very little in common anyway; 3e orcs are very Warhammer-ish in illustration.

Even the pictures that artists have done over the years portraying Tolkien's orcs are merely their own interpretation of his description, not Tolkien's own work. Some of the same people that have done art for official LOTR books have probably done art for D&D and vice versa. We all draw from the same well of inspiration.
The fact is that the orcs from Peter Jackson's movies are just the inbred children of the artists inspired by Tolkien's work, and the Trilogy's bastard love child, D&D. With that in mind, can anyone really point fingers at who is ripping who off?

I think that's definately an overstatment. For one thing, no, nobody on the LotR production team also did work for D&D. The closest thing you can find to that statement being true is that Michael Kaluta (and maybe someone else too, although he's the only one I know of) did a LotR calendar one year and he also freelances occasionally for D&D. Most of the big names in Tolkien illustration: John Howe, Alan Lee, even Darrell K. Sweet, etc. (you know, anyone who's illustrated a book cover or otherwise can be considered "official LOTR books" as you say) have never worked for D&D, and in the case of many of them, I happen to know that they probably know very little if anything about it either.

 

[LoneWolf23]

So why waste your time on it?

To quote the guys of "Full Frontal Nerdity": "Because someone has to."

 

[Endur]

What about everyone who worked for ICE on the Middle Earth Role Playing Game in the 1980's? None of them has ever worked for TSR/WOTC?

I think that's definately an overstatment. For one thing, no, nobody on the LotR production team also did work for D&D. The closest thing you can find to that statement being true is that Michael Kaluta (and maybe someone else too, although he's the only one I know of) did a LotR calendar one year and he also freelances occasionally for D&D. Most of the big names in Tolkien illustration: John Howe, Alan Lee, even Darrell K. Sweet, etc. (you know, anyone who's illustrated a book cover or otherwise can be considered "official LOTR books" as you say) have never worked for D&D, and in the case of many of them, I happen to know that they probably know very little if anything about it either.

 

[Desdichado]

The main artist for MERP was Angus McBride, and no, he hasn't ever worked on any other RPG that I'm aware of. His career is primarily in military history illustrations.