D&D 3.5 Orcs: back to Tolkien?

[maddman75]

/me sees opportunity to ramble about his campaign setting.

Here's what I did with my orcs. I had the choice to make - do I want the degenerate, despoiled man-beasts of Tolkien, or the spiritual warrior-race of Warcraft. Well, I'm in charge so I decided to have both.

Orcs are not a natural creature. Goblins are, but they are scavengers and thieves, always existing on the edge of other societies. Central to my setting is the Empire of Krall, a vaugely romanesque place. Krallan slave-breeders created the first orcs in an attempt to make a perfect slave race. Obedient, fierce warriors that could breed like rabbits. The bred humans with goblins, and perhaps a bit of demon blood.

These first orcs because known as the black orcs. They were certainly fast breeders and fierce warriors, but the goblin blood made them independant and wily. They were unsuitable for slaves, as they would rebel against their masters, and in combat they would not hold formations or take orders. Most of them escaped into the wilds and continue to breed and threaten outlying areas.

The breeders then attempted to influence the line with magics to give the orcs a tendency toward religion. With a belief in the Krallan gods, they could be taught to obey their masters and that a warrior's heaven awaited them. But these orcs didn't take well to the Krallan gods. They rebelled as well, this time as an organized force. They fled to the mountains to practice their simple shamanistic faith. These are the green orcs.

The breeders determined that the problem was far too much goblin blood. THey bred the stock back with humans to get the red orc, or hobgoblin. These are the perfect slave that Krall had long dreamed of, and largely makes up their legions. The other two races scratch out an existence in the wild places of the world, the forgotten children of Krall.

 

[d4]

I just typed this up in another thread, but it's a much more complicated story than this.

thanks for the detailed explanation, JD. i've read the Silmarillion and the first couple books of Lost Tales, but i never picked up the History of Middle-Earth series. i think the Silmarillion is what i was remembering.

one question:

Sauron, being formerly of the people of Aule...

do you mean Sauron was one of the Maiar who formerly served Aule (as i thought i recalled), or that he was literally a dwarf -- the people that Aule created?

 

[Orius]

Good. I always thought the 'we aren't using Tolkien, see our orcs have huge pig snouts and are green' model was silly and really didn't fool anyone. I've always pictured and depicted orcs in my games as the 'fallen beast man' type, much as they are used in 3.0/3.5.

Same here. I never understood why orcs and goblins need to be green. Pig snouts are stupid too. Orcs as a bestial reflection of man I think works better.

 

[Orius]

Tolkien's orcs are also Tolkien's goblins. The uruk-hai are what D&D would call half-orcs. Peter Jackson didn't wanted to imply the idea of cross-breeding with orcs and chose to make them mud beasts, but well.

Basically, using D&D terms, the smaller orcs, like those that live in Moria would be statitically equal to goblins, larger orcs, especially those trained for war would be equivalent to the standard D&D orc, and Uruk-hai would be equivalent to hobgoblins. At least that's how I see it. Tolkien lumped them all together as orcs, where in D&D orcs and gobliniods are separate races.

Half-orcs were a breed created by Saruman, for example, the southerner in Bree that was described as looking like "more than half a goblin". Also, a number of Saruman's henchmen in the Scouring of the Shire seemed to be the half-orcs. (And I'm going from the books here, not the movies.)

 

[LoneWolf23]

Well, I'm pleased with the way this debate has developped. Ironically, in my campaign, the Goblinoid races have taken over the role of the Tolkienesque Orc: the goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears are all labled "Goblins" (as in Birthright), and are generally cast as the "Prolific Race of Evil Minions" role, with different clans of Goblins being located all over the campaign setting, either acting individually or in service to greater evil powers.

The Orcs, however, are less Evil, but still Aggressive and violent, with a culture somewhere between that of the Klingons, Celts and Spartan (with subcultures leaning more in one direction or another). The race's alignment tendancies tend to be towards Chaotic Neutral, though most are simply non-good (meaning non-peaceful). While they can be found in service to the forces of Evil, Humans can be found almost as often in that position.

The primary difference between the Goblins and the Orcs is that while the latter have a strong sense of Warrior's Honor and value Valor and Strength, the Goblins have no regards for Honor, they fight dirty, and cowardice isn't seen as a flaw.

 

[Orius]

To nitpick: Sindarin word for 'orcs' is yrch. The Sindarin word for 'orc' singular is orch.
.

And "orc" was the Sindarin term adapted to the language of the Rohirrim.

 

[pawsplay]

"Goblin-men" just means men who are wicked.

 

[Gez]

Since every one rambles about his own orcs and goblins...

Orcs are, by far, the most evil. The worst of the bunch are the deep, Orcus-worshipping, plague-spreading, curse-spewing, undead-raising orcs from the depth of the underdark; and the scheeming, ruthless, ambitious, now-with-more-psionic-powers-and-hivemind grey orcs from the sentient city of Kaztengarken.
Next you have the mountain orcs and the steppe orcs, who are more traditional.

Goblinoids are much more varied in alignments. While the good-aligned goblins are rare, neutrals are quite frequent (about maybe 1/4). Bugbears (including the snow bugbears from the land of the Eternal Winter) and hobgoblins are less often neutral than mere goblins.

 

[ruleslawyer]

"Goblin-men" just means men who are wicked.

Not necessarily. Again, the phrase "half-orcs and goblin-men" doesn't really make sense unless it basically means "manlike orcs and/or orclike men." Jackson just seems to have taken the phrase a bit out of context.

do you mean Sauron was one of the Maiar who formerly served Aule (as i thought i recalled), or that he was literally a dwarf -- the people that Aule created?

The latter.

 

[pawsplay]

Conceivably, "goblin men" refers to half-orcs (created through sorcery). I assumed however it simply referred to Men of Mordor (corrupt Haradrim, Easterlings, Numenoreans).