D&D 3.5 Orcs: back to Tolkien?
- Thread starter LoneWolf23
- Start date
Brennin Magalus
First Post
Galeros said:
I appreciate what Tolkien did for the genre, but I also would like D&D to remain distinct from his mythology.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Well, D&D orcs aren't exactly Tolkien orcs, or Warcraft orcs, or whatever. They're bigger and stronger than Tolkien orcs, they're not as lawful and honorable as Warcraft orcs, etc. They're yours to customize.
As to orcish lifespan: Note that the corruption of elves to make orcs is, like so many other parts of JRRT's cosmology, only one possible explanation of the origin of orcs. IIRC, in Unfinished Tales, the author mentions that conflicting legends place orcs as being in existence before the coming of the elves to Middle-Earth; creations of Melkor in the times when darkness still lay on the world. In this, they parallel the dwarves: Arrogant creations of the Valar that seek to precede Iluvatar's own creation, the Eldar. Basically, like most myths, different versions of the orc story exist to serve different metaphorical purposes.
In any event, since orc children are never mentioned in Tolkien's works, one might presume that orcs are "bred" by some artificial process. As such, they're more like constructs than living beings, and might not actually die, since it's not like the orc population would automatically increase in the absence of a finite lifespan. Why shouldn't they be immortal?
As to orcish lifespan: Note that the corruption of elves to make orcs is, like so many other parts of JRRT's cosmology, only one possible explanation of the origin of orcs. IIRC, in Unfinished Tales, the author mentions that conflicting legends place orcs as being in existence before the coming of the elves to Middle-Earth; creations of Melkor in the times when darkness still lay on the world. In this, they parallel the dwarves: Arrogant creations of the Valar that seek to precede Iluvatar's own creation, the Eldar. Basically, like most myths, different versions of the orc story exist to serve different metaphorical purposes.
In any event, since orc children are never mentioned in Tolkien's works, one might presume that orcs are "bred" by some artificial process. As such, they're more like constructs than living beings, and might not actually die, since it's not like the orc population would automatically increase in the absence of a finite lifespan. Why shouldn't they be immortal?
ruleslawyer said:
No time to look through the text at the moment, but on my last read-through of TTT last year before seeing teh movie, I distinctly recall someone mentioning Saruman breeding orcs and goblin men. I don't think it's a misinterpretation.
Yeah, well, the Bestiary's all well and good, but you'll note that it is only Saruman's orcs at Helm's Deep who are ever heard to say "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!"
Gez
First Post
D&D Orcs have never been green. Never.
Orcs began their existence under the pen of Tolkien. They were one of the (not that numerous, BTW) things taken from Tolkien by Gygax and Arneson and put into D&D (the others were hobbits, ents, and multiracial adventuring party).
D&D orcs were the militaristic LE hordes, very close to Tolkien's vision of them.
Then came WarHammer, who had a different take on orcs. First, they are even stronger. Secondly, they are definitely stupid -- much more than D&D's ones, and definitely more than Tolkien's ones. Thirdly, they're green. And finally, they're "orks" rather than orcs, because it looks more brutal and stupid with a K.
The WH orks, by the way, are not evoluted pigs, but mushrooms. It's one of the thing you learn in WH40K. And who cares if mushrooms are never green?
Well, the grotesque orks, so undisciplined and idiot that their gruesome violence is overlooked and they are "funny", were so successful they influenced lots of people, probably more than Tolkien's vision of them. The Warcraft games, for example, copied its orcs from Warhammer (only in WC3 did they began to give them a slightly different flavor).
D&D orcs endured. They never went green. Greenish grey at worst. However, since no one still played them as lawful minions of evil, they went chaotic. (That's why you have seemingly aberrant choices in the Great Wheel, like the orcish pantheon in the lawful Acheron.)
Tolkien's orcs are also Tolkien's goblins. The uruk-hai are what D&D would call half-orcs. Peter Jackson didn't wanted to imply the idea of cross-breeding with orcs and chose to make them mud beasts, but well.
Orcs began their existence under the pen of Tolkien. They were one of the (not that numerous, BTW) things taken from Tolkien by Gygax and Arneson and put into D&D (the others were hobbits, ents, and multiracial adventuring party).
D&D orcs were the militaristic LE hordes, very close to Tolkien's vision of them.
Then came WarHammer, who had a different take on orcs. First, they are even stronger. Secondly, they are definitely stupid -- much more than D&D's ones, and definitely more than Tolkien's ones. Thirdly, they're green. And finally, they're "orks" rather than orcs, because it looks more brutal and stupid with a K.
The WH orks, by the way, are not evoluted pigs, but mushrooms. It's one of the thing you learn in WH40K. And who cares if mushrooms are never green?
Well, the grotesque orks, so undisciplined and idiot that their gruesome violence is overlooked and they are "funny", were so successful they influenced lots of people, probably more than Tolkien's vision of them. The Warcraft games, for example, copied its orcs from Warhammer (only in WC3 did they began to give them a slightly different flavor).
D&D orcs endured. They never went green. Greenish grey at worst. However, since no one still played them as lawful minions of evil, they went chaotic. (That's why you have seemingly aberrant choices in the Great Wheel, like the orcish pantheon in the lawful Acheron.)
Tolkien's orcs are also Tolkien's goblins. The uruk-hai are what D&D would call half-orcs. Peter Jackson didn't wanted to imply the idea of cross-breeding with orcs and chose to make them mud beasts, but well.
demiurge1138
Inventor of Super-Toast
Interesting timing. I'm re-reading LoTR right now, and I was also thinking about the differences between Tolkien and DnD orcs. So I did something about it, and made Tolkien-flavored orcs and posted them just last night. Since I got no response, I assumed that nobody else was thinking along these lines.
I'm apparently wrong.
The link, BTW, is http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72489
and, as much as I hate plugging myself (yeah, right), I'd like some feedback on exactly how poor my efforts were.
BTW (and closer to topic), I personally like Tolkien-style orcs much more than greenish pig (or mushroom, or whatever) men.
Demiurge out.
I'm apparently wrong.
The link, BTW, is http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72489
and, as much as I hate plugging myself (yeah, right), I'd like some feedback on exactly how poor my efforts were.
BTW (and closer to topic), I personally like Tolkien-style orcs much more than greenish pig (or mushroom, or whatever) men.
Demiurge out.
Isn't the orc illo in the 3E MM green?Gez said:
Then for AD&D Gygax added the original ranger class, the half-orc, giant eagles with human-level intelligence, fire seeds...
That was always my impression. I don't know where Jackson's goblin-men thing came from. Hmm, I wonder if he addresses the point in the FOTR commentary...
Derulbaskul
Adventurer
Gez said:
Interestingly, the "blue book" version of D&D (pre-AD&D) had the orcs as CE rather than LE. I'm not sure about the old brown box, however.
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