D&D 3.5 Orcs: back to Tolkien?

[Angcuru]

From my readings and personal interpretation, I have concluded thus:

-Orcs are specifically from Mordor, elves turned evil 'moriquendi', and then into an entirely seperate race, 'orc'.
-Goblins are orcs that got cut off from Mordor, and have adapted to their surroundings, i.e. 'moria-orcs'/'goblins'.
-Uruk-Hai are cross-breedings of orcs, goblins, and wicked men. Goblins being readily available in the surrounding area, as are the men, and Saruman having a steady supply of orcs from Mordor once he allied with Sauron.

It all becomes clear if you read 'The Silmarillion' and get into the mindset of things. Plus, you get the reason for the elf-dwarf animocity. So go, read it, now.

 

[Endur]

I've decided that my next D&D game that I run will be using Middle Earth as the campaign world. I havn't run a game set in Middle Earth since the 1980's.

 

[Christian Walker]

I'm not down with the CR of the new Orcs. A monster with a 17 strength and a weapon that had a gnarley threat range is not CR1/2. A half-assed human warrior with a spear and leather and a 12 strength is 1/2 CR.

 

[hunter1828]

Never liked green-skinned, pig-like orcs...never. I like Tolkien's orcs.

hunter1828

 

[Numenorean]

I like the Tolkien orcs. There were three types of "orcs" in Middle Earth that were referenced in the books.

first off there were goblins. They were usually the normal orcs, smaller weaker orcs, etc. Then there are the Uruk Hai, they are a special stronger breed that both Sauron and Saruman had. Lastly there are the goblin-men, they are what D&D considers half-orcs, like the guy Aragorn identifies in the Tavern in Bree that Bill Ferney is associating with (in FOTR book). He was a half orc up from the south. When the hobbits come back to The Shire I think its Saruman's half orcs or goblin men that are his muscle in the Shire.

I hope that clears things up.

Oh yeah, orc and goblin were often interchanged and used to name the same creature. You have to remember that for the better part of 3 ages, Middle Earth hasn't known Uruk Hai. They were relatively new and came in during the latter half of the third age (which is the age The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings saga is set in). There were only the normal orcs and goblins prior to this. Goblin was also used to describe the weaker and smaller orcs too.

BTW I really like Angus McBride's pics of orcs. Just do a search for Angus McBride's artwork on the web, especially his MERP cover art and you will get some very nice pics of fantasy orcs/goblins. I used some print outs of those covers to describe to my players what the orcs and such look like in my campaign.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

Gah, well i can only hope D&D moves farther away from Tolkien.

 

[ruleslawyer]

To each his own.

As for the goblin-men statement in the FotR film: IIRC, it is a misinterpretation of a phrase in TTT about the "half-orcs and goblin-men" composing a good part of Saruman's forces. I'd ignore it, as it doesn't really make sense.

About the uruk-hai: It's interesting, actually. The Tolkien Bestiary has the following to say:

In the year 2475 of the Third Age a new breed of Orkish soldiery came out of Mordor. These were called the Uruk-hai. They were black-skinned, black-blooded and lynx-eyed, nearly as tall as Men and unafraid of light.... they wielded long swords and spears and carried shields emblazoned with the Red Eye of Mordor.

As the spawning of lesser Orcs was counted among the greatest evils of Melkor, so was the breeding of Uruk-hai numbered among Sauron's most terrible deeds.

So the uruk-hai are creations of Sauron's, not Saruman's. This actually does make sense, as they number among Sauron's forces in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and there are no explicit references to Saruman's creating them in the books, per se. I like the fact that the films show Saruman creating them, as it reinforces the tendency of Saruman to work along similar lines (but in a derivative fashion) to his master, and heightens the immediacy of the threat to the world of Men that these beings represent.

As for orc vs. goblin: The distinction is largely linguistic; JRRT's notes to one of the chapters of the Book of Lost Tales, Vol. 1 clarify this. It's similar to the link between "gnome" and "[Noldor] elf". IIRC, "goblin" is actually Westron, not Dwarvish.

[Edit]I'd also add that D&D orcs are more similar to uruk-hai than to JRRT's orcs; those would indeed resemble goblins more strongly. Actually, D&D orcs might be even TOUGHER than uruk-hai, since the latter, while much like Men, are not described as being stronger, per se. But there's not a bad parallel. IMC, there are two major subraces of "orc": goblins (lesser Orcs) and uruk-hai (greater orcs, a/k/a D&D orcs). However, I lower the orc Strength bonus to +2, making them basically like less wise half-orcs.[/edit]

 

[Taelorn76]

IMHO I think Tolkien's orcs are better suited for D&D. They are more like a currupted or tainted race of humans, disfiqured by their evilness, insted of highly evolved pigs.

 

[d4]

They are more like a currupted or tainted race of humans...

i believe they're actually corrupted elves, which raises an interesting question: in Middle-Earth, what's the life expectancy of an orc? (assuming it doesn't die a violent death, which it most likely will.) are they immortal like the elves they were bred from?

 

[Darkness]

Some recent orc artwork in the Miniatures Handbook kinda reminds me of Warcraft III.

But then, I'm addicted to Warcraft III.