D&D 3E: the Death of Imagination?

[Olive]

more madness!

my experience has been that some of my players are rules lawyering more, but only because the rules actually make sense now, and are relatively easy to learn.

i'm always tempted by sigil's style of 'in game, I AM THE LAW', but the fact is that sometimes i forget something, and we all have more fun when the rules are consistant. sure i wish that the main rules lawyer wasn't quite so beligerant at times, but its getting better so it's ok.

Tom sound slike he'shaving problems with his group more than the system. try being a player for a while i reckon!

 

[MerricB]

I've always been a better rules lawyer than my players, so it doesn't bother me.

In any game (3E, 1E, Amber or otherwise) there can come a point when the DM/player relationship breaks down, and the game degenerates into farce. In 1E, the two 'named' versions were Monty Haul and Killer Dungeons.

Certainly, not all rules are for all players, but if you have a group of players that want the 3E rules strictly followed, and you are a DM who does not want to follow those rules, then the player/DM relationship is likely to break down... in other systems, other causes can occur.

"Railroading", anyone?

Cheers!

 

[takyris]

Right, but even Railroading isn't completely a DM's problem.

If the DM tells you he's running an adventure from the module, and the party ignores the subtle hints, the big hints, and the hammer-to-the-head hints to go and head into the Dungeon of Depravity, then the DM has just wasted his hard-earned money, and the players are more than likely just making trouble for the fun of it.

My party's characters are level 15. I try to ask them a few days before an individual game session to give me some clue of where they're going and what they want to accomplish, because if I spend three hours making a trio of red dragons and half-dragon warriors to defend a mountain pass, and then they go and teleport to a swamp halfway across the world because of a rumor I threw them three weeks ago, then nobody ends up happy. They're at a level now where real-world constraints don't limit them anymore. I can't just make a town and know that whatever else they choose, they've got to stay in the town, because outside the town is just wilderness. They can go anywhere in the world they want to, and I've got to have something challenging and, more importantly, FUN for them to do wherever they end up.

This is a slightly different topic than the rules-oriented conversations we were having, but it's still a part of the same topic. Third Edition has enough rules and possibilities to make it difficult to prepare for all contingencies as a DM. It's TOUGH to have your giants be as smart in combat as the party fighter while your devil is as cunning with his spell-like abilities as the party wizard, the lich is as well-prepared with his divine magic as the party cleric, and the evil satyr king makes as good a use of his skills as the party rogue.

-Tacky

 

[Van Dyksun]

Personally, Tom, I think the problem is that we've got some truly freaky players in our group. (deleted inaccurate list)

Hey, Lucius, you left out the freakiest player in the whole bunch: the guy who sleeps with his player's handbook and constantly reads the SRD when he's supposed to be at work, but refuses to take his turn as DM.



ps. I am taking my medication!

 

[Voadam]

Re: Perfect subject line...

I will beleive that when 10 different people from this forum spit back the same answer for this question:

What is the Climb DC for someone to climb an angry Cloud Giant?

END COMMUNICATION

25, assuming that it's clothed, and climbing someone draws an attack of opportunity.

 

[Voadam]

Player's should have access to the books with their character's powers that they in-game know of. This includes class powers, feats, and spells. Otherwise the DM will have to field easy questions (how many spell levels is the increase for empower? what skills does my favored enemy bonus help?) or obscure ones, as in my last game "I cast ice knife at him, I forgot to bring the printout description you e-mailed me, how does it work again?" [attack roll, piercing damage, cold damage, saving throw, dex damage, secondary versus primary target]).

Good ways to help out the DM control, only allow short rules challenges during combat (Charging does not provoke an attack of opportunity!) and be ready to say "whatever, this is how I'm running it now, we can discuss it after the combat. You don't need to prove you are right at the moment, just anounce what you are doing. Interrupting combat really can kill the pacing of the game sapping it of some dramatic tension filled action fun.

 

[jasper]

Tom I see your lack of imagination and raise you by
Second edition complete handbook of whatever for those kids who could not come up with an idea and wanted kits also most as powerfull as first edition bard.

And I bump you with the first edition
Oriential adventurers give your fighters a eastern name do research on eastern armour and drive on with your fighter.

I raise also
Wildness and dungeoneer survival guides and the manual of the planes.

i check piratecats old first edition wizards fighters who are shades of merlin, all the bards who ripoff the bard books, and the hobbits who step from tolken.
All the fighters who want to be Talon, Bob, beastmaster after what ever bad movie came out.

the rules now are a to b to c with exceptions on e
back then A and b unless follow by the dmg page on spells overturn by the Unearthed Aranca.


I enjoy playing first edition regardless of the flaws when I had a good group.
I enjoy playing first edition regardless of the fewer flaws when I have a good group.

Rules lawyers have been around since before rpg's. So have scumming players, power gamers, whiners, cry babies and bad game masters.
People have stayed the same but the games have changed.

 

[megamania]

Could it be you just need a break?

 

[Buttercup]

I'm having a crisis of faith here. Although it is worded in such a way as to provoke responses rather than politely request them, I'm not just trolling.

For what it's worth, I didn't think you were trolling, Tom. It sounded like angst to me.

I don't know if I can add anything to the advice you have received from others, but here's what I think. I see three possible places your trauma is coming from. 1. Your players. 2. You. 3. The rules. Only you can decide which is the problem. Of course, it might be more than one of these areas.

If it's your players, then banning all books except the DM's from the table might actually work. I agree that you should read them the suggested paragraph from the DMG. Having rules lawyers at the table with you is a pain in the neck, and it sounds like you have some.

If it's you, then Hong's advice is sound. Take a break and let someone else run the game. This is easier said than done, of course. Maybe none of your players wants to DM, in which case you'll have to hunt down a new group. Or, you could get into an online game. It's ok to want a break, and were I in your shoes, I think I'd be frank with my players about why. It might result in some useful changes, who knows?

Now, what if it is the rules? To me the 3E ruleset is a framework for my flights of imagination rather than a weight, so I really can't wrap my mind around this possiblity. I agree with Sagan that I just nudge things from various sources a bit until they fit my vision. On the other hand, IMC the players are still only level 4. I admit to some trepidation about high level play. I'll probably do what WizarDru suggests and just start over, because I'd like to play in a high level campaign before I DM one. Can you think through exactly what about the rules is annoying or stifling you? Or is it just general malaise?

Well, I think this probably wasn't much help, but I did want to chime in with some support. I hope you find a solution.

 

[Zappo]

Re: Perfect subject line...

The DM is certantly not made obsolete just because the rules happen to be more detailed. And not every eventuality is covered by the rules. I will beleive that when 10 different people from this forum spit back the same answer for this question:

What is the Climb DC for someone to climb an angry Cloud Giant?

25, assuming that it's clothed, and climbing someone draws an attack of opportunity.

So? We're getting close. Faith starting to shake already?