D&D 3E: the Death of Imagination?

[Zappo]

*shrug*

I disagree on just about everything. More options are always good because you can just don't allow what's bad, and I actually spend far, far, FAR less time looking up rules in 3E than I did with 2E - in fact, I only look up certain combat maneuvers and turning undead (for some reason, I can't quite get the hang of turning). All the rest, it uses always the same mechanics, so there's not much to look up and if I can't remember something, I can just guess it and probably get it right.

I think you're just suffering from DM burnout - take a break from DMing for a few months; have someone else DM, and see if it gets better.

 

[X.plosion]

One thing you have to remember while DM'ing is that the DM is always right. Says so in the DMG. Anything you can think of can happen in game. Extenuating circumstances can always arise, and if worse comes to worse, the gods are always there to alter teh world as you see fit . Hell, whos to say that as a DM, your not part god yourself...

 

[Tom Cashel]

This is a common creature who's latin name is Trollicus Goadicus

That's an extremely unimaginative reply. You must play D&D.

You're wrong, wrong, wrong.

No, you're wrong, wrong, wrong. Battle of the subjective opinions!

*blink* I didn't expect to find anything insightful in this thread.

No, I thought "You are wrong, wrong, wrong" was pretty thoughtful, insightful and considerate. Didn't you?

Anyway...

It could very well be my own desire for power. The problem is, I've played RPGs with several of the same people for about 10 years now. Back in the days of 2E, or with White Wolf games, I didn't get nearly the amount of flak I get now.

As for Robin Laws, it's a decent point but also incredibly simplistic. I don't take it as a given that role-playing games are always a power struggle between players and GM. When the DM has more flexibility, the players do too. They are free to describe their own powers any way they please, instead of leaning on the rules to do it for them.

I think you're just suffering from DM burnout - take a break from DMing for a few months; have someone else DM, and see if it gets better.

That sounds about right.

One thing you have to remember while DM'ing is that the DM is always right.

Try telling my players that. They know that the rulebook is always right.

 

[King_Stannis]

Tom's got a point. I don't necessarily think that the system is totally broken, but if unchecked the DM can turn into nothing more than the rules clerk.

If you have strong willed min/max players, 3e can be a problem because, as Tom said, they can find a rule for everything to spoil an ad-lib. It's fine and dandy to say "rule 0" it, but if that strong willed player is going to sniff and pout every time you do that, then it's no fun for anyone. Fortunately my group right now is just the opposite. I get the feeling they want me to ad-lib more, so in that respect 3e sort of has me in it's grip - and it can be hard to break free of, especially when it comes to combat.

 

[Eridanis]

It could very well be my own desire for power. The problem is, I've played RPGs with several of the same people for about 10 years now. Back in the days of 2E, or with White Wolf games, I didn't get nearly the amount of flak I get now.

And so we see the effect of years of people screaming for clearer rules for certain situations: it inhibits others who want to be able to handle situations in different ways. I prefer 3E to 2E, but I can see your point.

I agree that you might just need a break. I won't cast aspersions on your DMing or on the game you want to play. Getting away for a while might lower the pressure you feel, and your players might be able to back off from wielding the +5 rulebook of fun disruption.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

If you have strong willed min/max players, 3e can be a problem because, as Tom said, they can find a rule for everything to spoil an ad-lib.

You don't think that would be true for any rpg?

I had a player like that in 2nd edition, but I was a bit stronger willed then him.

SD

 

[Petrosian]

I want to use my imagination and cleverness in setting up the plot, the challenge and the development of the characters and setting. I do NOT want to use my creativism and imagination in trying to determine whether the fireball can reach around the corner to hit the gnoll or whether using a double move to get past an ogre with a club opens yourself up for attack or not.

In short, for the things specified by the rules, the way "normal things work" (where normal can include things like the most common spells and magic items) I do not want my imagination to be needed. I want both my players and myself to draw on the same understanding for normal things, how they work and what the expectations are.

This way, when the fireball FAILS to stretch around the corner and toast the gnoll and this goes contrary to my players and my common understanding of the "way normal things work", then my players can IN CHARACTER go "hey, wait a minute, What's up with dat?!?" and recognize the event as a CLUE that something more than "normal" is going on.

this does not happen as readily, I cannot be as subtle, if the basis for resolving the question of "does the fireball wrap around the corner" is "gm judgement call spur of the moment how does he feel today"...

Knowing how things "normally work" because they are defined as such in the rules, clearly so in the best cases, does not in any way mean that i am somehow hamstrung or prevented from creating, using my imagination, UNUSUAL situations where things are not "normal" and thus having special and wondrous events unfold.

In short, having rules that tell me what is "normal" does not limit me to running only "normal" events, scenes and stories. It just helps both my players and myself recognize the unusual ones and appreciate them.

**************

As an aside, a slightly different but related subject...

If the "normal" defined by the rules in a given case is unacceptable to you for being "normal" for your campaign, then you should make a campaign specific setting change ahead of time. For example, DND3e has raise dead et all as "normal" spells for clerics to get. This makes death much less serious a thing for the campaign world and affects the issue of mortality greatly. Another example is GMW. This spells makes enchanted weapons a "normal" thing as several classes gain at failry low levels the ability to provide enchantments to weapons common and lasting for long periods. Another example, fly spell is fairly low level and provides rapid flight over a decent time frame.

These are all "normal' in DND3e, part of common spells lists.

If you want to run a world or campaign or story where death is critical, where magic weapons are rare and wondrous items, or where flying carpets or winged boots are exotic and wondrous things... then you need to address the "normal" availability of these spells. A +2 sword cannot be a rare and mystical beast that character go all gushy over if the sorcerer has been boosting blades for three months now. A pair of winged sandals wont be seen as a treasure above others if the sorcerer is hovering right next to the winged boot guy looking bored.

So, make sure the "mormal" is what you want as "normal" and then spend your time and energy and creativity on the interesting stuff.

 

[Orias]

I think 3E is a wonder, because we can try to find rules for things that are happening, or else we can try to create a new rule for an instance that there are not rules for based off of another rule (i.e. shooting a lightning bolt into water).

As long as your group remembers that the rules don't matter, but the overall intent of the game is what should be in the front-seat, you shouldn't get these problems. Wing it, don't worry about being "rule" correct everywhere, that can get boring.

 

[Henry]

Try telling my players that. They know that the rulebook is always right.

Next game, shoot one player per hour until they accept your authority as DM.

--------

I have to say that in my experience, there's plenty of room for innovation - but in ALL aspects of life, we will get lazy if all the work is done for us. The important thing is this: Don't use the gaming materials as a crutch, use them as a tool.

Open your Dungeon master's guide to Monte's Preface, and read to them the first few paragraphs. THE DM'S WORD IS FINAL about all rules and accepted supplments in the game.

After they sink this paragraph of verbal dynamite in, then tell them that you'd like to make some changes in the game in order to preserver YOUR fun, because you aren't having fun anymore with it yourself. These changes will include either reviewing all unbalanced prestige classes, feats, and items and altering what is needed to preserve your fun, or it will include you taking the reins as player for a while and letting someone else DM. No one can DM constantly without a break. Take 6 months off from DM'ing, and read as little fantasy as possible, and going to other genres. It will get your taste for D&D flowing again, believe it or not.

Good luck, Tom. There are thousands of DM's out there ready to prove you wrong, because they are enjoying their games like they haven't in many years previous. Have some fun.

 

[Walter_J]

Don't worry, I'm sure 3.5 will include rules for using one's imagination. There is a serious lack of rules in that area. Just the other day, I was talking to a player who wanted to play a bard that used the phrase "yo baby, yo baby, yo baby, yo" as a verbal component in all the character's spells. I said, "You can't do that because there are no rules covering that." He said "can't we just pretend?" I replied "Well, geeze, I'd like to help you out, but there aren't any rules for pretending either." [As a bit of an aside, I recently heard a rumor that the Encyclopedia Arrcane: Rapmasters will soon be published, to be quickly followed by "The Slayyers Guide to Gangstarappers."]

Seriously though, Tom, if you feel the rules are somehow keeping you from using your imagination, then don't let them! Rules are tools which exist to resolve actions and that's it! Remember, YOU ARE THE DM. THE DM IS IN CHARAGE OF ALL THINGS EXCEPT THE PC'S. YOU ARE EXPECTED TO ABJUDICATE CONSISTENTLY AND FAIRLY AND THE RULES EXIST TO HELP YOU DO THAT. See Henry's post above.

[Edited to add this]
Tom, I thought about your posts while I ate lunch and I wanted to add this in a sincere effort to be helpful. The problem isn't the rules or your players. I gather that you feel you lost control of your campaign, maybe because of the rules, and your abandoning that campaign in favor of another game. My advice is, don't. Do what you have to do to feel that you have some control back. Then move on, if that's how you still feel. Past performance does weigh heavily on future actions. Give up on something now, and you may find yourself falling into a bad habit.