D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3e to be changed to new d20 rules? 4e coming!

[Dinkeldog]

Gimpmaster is very good if you want to simulate how frequently characters should be maimed before they reach 2nd level.

 

[Victim]

Why the hell would they need a 4th ed already? And why make the combat even more detailed and slow. The incredible abstractness of 1e's combat was the beauty of it. It was quick and over, get back to the adventure. It's slow enough as it is now, I don't think we need to complicate it anymore.

Yes, 1e combat is so simple I can't figure out what AC I hit, I need to look at a chart instead. I don't know if the complicated initiative system we're using is house rule or not, but the wretched weapon charts are bad enough. In protest, I'm not going to attack. However, as a would be MU, I shouldn't need to.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: D&D 3e to be changed to new d20 rules? 4e coming!

D&D is pretty much the premeir fantasy RPG, persisting as such despite many allegedly suprior pretenders. And why do you think that is?

It's not because of hit points and armor class.

IMO, because aspects like AC and HP as they are capture the heroic fantasy feel. In D&D 3e, a character with a dagger can have a credible chance of harming someone in full plate armor if he is good enough. No such luck if you make armor into DC.

What, did critical hits disappear?

Anyway, if you want the heroic fantasy feel, the mechanic I'd recommend first would be high Defense bonuses. Heroes just don't get hit often.

Then I'd make Improved Crit (or something similar) much easier to get. Heroes are always scoring critical hits, even against the fiercest opponents.

The VP and Armor as DR systems work fine -- for the genres that they mean to emulate. But incorporating them into D&D proper would seriously shift the kilter of the game.

People want to "seriously shift the kilter of the game" though -- and that doesn't mean it has to be more complex (a la Rolemaster) or less heroic.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Realism?

If you look at it in the right light, then the whole idea of classes and levels would be out the window in favor of a much more customizable system if you wanted true realism.

Classes and levels can be realistic as long as you group only like abilities into a class. That is, it makes perfect sense that a Fighter's extra hit points, attack bonus, Fort bonus, and combat Feats are all linked. What doesn't make sense is that all classes improve greatly in hit points and to some degree in attack bonus and saves, even if they're noncombatants (Wizards, Experts, etc.).

I'd rather 4th ed emphasize good and simplistic mechanics that both make sense, and still retain the feel and meticulous detail of the worlds that TSR and now WOTC have built up over the years.

I agree completely.

 

[Zappo]

Take your DR for armor, your WP/VP systems, and your wizards that don't get BAB, and have fun with them, but don't dare suggest that it's the right way to play D&D.

I've played classless and realistic fantasy systems, and I'm sorry but there's no way in hell that I play GURPS instead of D&D when I want heroic fantasy - or any other similar system, for that matter. And everyone, everyone I know thinks the same thing. Sure, some of them occasionally whine that D&D is not realistic, but noone has ever suggested actually changing it.

Sorry, but 'first arrived' is one reason for D&D's success, but it's only one reason. Don't touch my hit points, my AC, my wizards with BAB, and my one-hundred-angry-peasants?-no-problem-at-all!. Or better, touch them if you want, play with them if you like, then try to actually market the result, and be ready for some negative numbers.

 

[jdfrenzel]

I've played classless and realistic fantasy systems, and I'm sorry but there's no way in hell that I play GURPS instead of D&D when I want heroic fantasy - or any other similar system, for that matter.

Same here, I love GURPS for some RPG genres, but nothing can touch D&D for its color, feel and charisma. Game mechanics are important to a degree, but I prefer my characters seem more heroically human than mechanically realistic.

D&D has always been a game reproducing epic fiction, not reality, so a the game's current general nod towards realism is good enough for me.

--- John

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Yes, 1e combat is so simple I can't figure out what AC I hit, I need to look at a chart instead. I don't know if the complicated initiative system we're using is house rule or not, but the wretched weapon charts are bad enough. In protest, I'm not going to attack. However, as a would be MU, I shouldn't need to.

DM - Ok you see an ogre.
Flexor - I'm going to attack charge and attack!
DM - Ok roll initiative (rolls 3 for Ogre)
Flexor - (rolls 4 for party initiative)
DM - Ok you go first.
Flexor - All right I charge in and swing my 2 handed sword at it.
DM - Roll
Flexor - (rolls a 13 adds +7 for strength & weapon specialization bonus) 20!
DM- Checks chart....ok that hits roll damage.

Not very complex is it? No AoO, dodge, charge, defensive fighting, etc, modifiers to keep track of. No individual initiatives to keep track of. It was very quick. We didn't use the speed & armor modifiers for weapons, and since it didn't impact the rest of the game it was easy to drop. Now drop a few rules from 3e and you screw up feats and other stuff.

 

[mmadsen]

I've played classless and realistic fantasy systems, and I'm sorry but there's no way in hell that I play GURPS instead of D&D when I want heroic fantasy - or any other similar system, for that matter.

You're drawing a common false dichotomy, suggesting that our only options are either D&D or GURPS, that we can have simple, heroic and unrealistic or complex, unheroic, and realistic. There's so much middle ground between those two options that it's silly to dismiss any tweak to D&D as turning it into GURPS.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Dichotomy

Mmadsen, I've participated in past threads with you, and I'm sorry, but you've always come across as someone who'd rather be playing GURPS than D&D. I certainly encourage you to publish your suggested changes to D&D under the OGL (and the d20 licenses) and see how quickly they fail to take off. In the marketplace of ideas, unless you have something to add that lots of other people value, I'm afraid your wishes for D&D to evolve into GURPS will continue to fall upon deaf ears.

 

[Davelozzi]

Anyone who has sat down to design their own game would probably tell you that it isn't too difficult to devise some elegant mechanics to capture the feel you're after--filling in the nooks and crannies with spells and monsters though ...

He speaketh the truth.