D&D 5E [D&D 5e] Level 1 Max Min Fun DPR and AC

[Chryssis]

I am not saying your wrong but their are 2 considerations here.

1. Enemy selection is GM dependent which means what your saying will not be true all the time with every GM. Even in that range the only common enemies under CR1 for level 1 fights with a higher than AC15 are Guards at AC16 and Hobgoblin AC18. The majority are AC12 and under.

- For example, I just started a new group and they fought AC 8 Zombies on their first mission...

2. Players rolls can make all the difference. I roll BAD so me rolling 3 attacks will mean less damage because I commonly miss all the attacks, so more attacks, statistically should be more damage but when I am only ever getting on success in a round I do better with single powerful strikes. Our party high roller on other hand doesn't miss hardly ever so he only cares about max average on hit. So only worried about hit because its a lot of math for an arbitrary number.

3. You only need need 300 xp in a group before you level to 2 and the entire post is irrelevant.

I will consed The typical "rats in the cellar" is a thing and rats have AC10. So while I don't think its statistically relevant number at tables due to player/GM variation... sure lets play with "to hit"

Most players have a +5 attack at level 1 because its something they can control with point buy, standard array, and even rolling stats first and picking a class that fist those stats using the highest for their primary combat stat. Venus rat AC10

80% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .8 = 11.2 DPR
55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13) = [20] x.55 = 11 DPR

So for typical rat in the cellar murder they are pretty much the same. however if are the Raging Strength Barbarian I listed as #1 static damage....

55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.55 = 12.1 DPR

Your still going to out DPR that Polearm Master...so.. my #1 stands.

But that's not the majority of low level monsters you say? Well AC12 is.
70% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .7 = 9.8 DPR
45% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.45 = 9.9 DPR
...and the barbarian is scraping a head.

Now if your GM likes high AC monsters at level 1 so your fighting a Hobgoblin AC18 out the gate and you roll better "to hit" than me, and do at least average damage... your going to beat my 0 DPR from missing every round. But that's so much speculation at that point its not worth trying to measure in my opinion. Primarily because I don't remember any GM I have ever played with making me fight enemies at level with an AC higher than 12 because they were worried they would party wipe in the first game. That diminishes every level and by 5 the gloves are completely off. But this thread is about level 1 characters, not whats going to be best for you later on as that is a lot more complicated.

errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

 

[FrogReaver]

errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

Didn’t you hear what he said. He sets all chances to hit at 100%

So he’s at 18 vs 22 and GWM still wins

its that kind of silliness that is the reason we are all going to give up on this thread

 

[Yunru]

1. Enemy selection is GM dependent which means what your saying will not be true all the time with every GM. Even in that range the only common enemies under CR1 for level 1 fights with a higher than AC15 are Guards at AC16 and Hobgoblin AC18. The majority are AC12 and under.

Yes, but they have to have an AC of less than 10 for GWM to be superior at 1st level. Obviously that number increases each time the player's attack bonus does.

3. You only need need 300 xp in a group before you level to 2 and the entire post is irrelevant.

Ummm... no? Nothing about the maths changes just because you hit 2nd level?
Unless you're talking reckless attack, but that has its own downsides that also have to be considered.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Then this whole thread is meaningless.

But through your own addition even your calculations don't account for actual play.

..omitted..

Though there is a lost and incalculatable DPR component to GWM and that's the bonus action attack on enemy death. That actually is pretty common to cause with any 2 handed weapon in the early levels and considerably ups dpr at low levels when you have a chance of killing most enemies in 1 or 2 hits. It's actually the better part of the feat until you get to about level 3-5.

So from an actual game play stand point you are not wrong on DPR. The purpose of the thread originally is AC... which is easy to determine and hard to debate. My DPR addition was and is just a max possible DPR which is what I call it. Its not possible to reflect actual game play with to hit because when one hit kills an enemy even with a 5% chance and they take the hit that exceeds the HP... they are dead. Point in case that that the listed attack of GWM shows 6.75 DPR when its not possible to do less than 16. Its never 6.75. Its 0 or the target is dead. It is also pointless to talk about max DPR in a real game and not instead of max variable because their are only a very few NPCs under CR1 that can take 16 damage and live. making anything higher pointless over kill. That alone reduces "MAX DPR" into an arbitrary number game for the sake of a numbers game. Which I did and is fun to me.

But your trying to cater to a specific fighting style based on some desire for it to be "best"... I don't care which style does the highest damage and would love for your to beat the Human Variant War Cleric (GWM) buld however … I am going for max possible damage per round which means if your missing your not doing your max damage. Does that reflect actual play. No. The goal is not consistent average in play that's a different goal.

 

[ClaytonCross]

errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

This is a valid point, point for the sake of this specific poste. I just did not consider this as I have never built a barbarian with polearm master. That said, as FrogReaver stated, I am interested in MAX damage just as an experiment in theory crafting. It was possibly miss leading for me to even play with "to hit" in response to FrogReaver's statements because "to hit" is not max damage and it not viable relation to actual play, since in actual play your hit or you miss. You never hit for 9.9 when your minim damage is 16.

Also, We both did the math wrong because a quarterstaff is 1d6 versatile 1d8. You just copied my mistake. I had a headache when I did that so made the same mistake Elfcrusher pointed out that made before.

 

[FrogReaver]

have fun doing meaningless crunch.

The goal of most crunch is to get A decent approximation to compare in game effectiveness of various abilities. Most of us find doing some of that kind of crunch to be fun and interesting.

Your crunch isn’t trying to get any kind of approximation with which to compare in game effectiveness. It’s just not meaningful information.

Which is why I’m saying have fun if that’s what ya wanna do. Just don’t expect many here to jump on board given the way you are doing it

 

[ClaytonCross]

Yes, but they have to have an AC of less than 10 for GWM to be superior at 1st level. Obviously that number increases each time the player's attack bonus does.

Sure, and if the topic was combat Superiority instead of highest possible DPR then that could be the way to go. I don't really want to go that route because its scenario based and if you change the scenario you change superiority. For example if your doing DPR and you let great weapon master kill and enemy then get a third strike, doesn't that mean its going to do more damage than Polearm Master? That changes things and it breaks down into "if you do it this way this style does more damage" .."but if you do it this way this weapon does more damage" their is no constancy in the answer because one person will say yes you get the extra great weapon master attack and another you don't. Striate math of which has the highest possible damage based on 100% to hit is not debatable. It's just strait math. I understand that is not battle accurate but neither is %hit DPR because it does not account for the 0 sum of a miss not does it remain consistent for AC and HP of your enemies. You can't do more than 3 damage to a Crawling Claw because it only has 2 HP... which makes the argument of max damage silly. If you want to determine damage with consistency you need a consistent scenario. So I used 100% because it removes enemies, it removes the AC variable, it removes the HP variable, it removes reactions, it removes movement action order, it removes player rolls (to hit and damage), and it removes enemies killing you before achieving the DPR. All these things effect how useful a weapon is and that will differ from campaign to campaign and fight to fight.

The intent is max damage. If you were going to setup to try and achieve MAX damage for comparison you need a base line. 100% to hit unlimited HP is my target. Like attacking a combat dummy. If you want to setup a different SPECIFIC scenario go ahead and list the scenario explain why and I will list what we get as max damage for that scenario as its own entry.

Example. If you want to set best weapon when fighting side by side with an ally vs TWO Thugs AC11 HP32, turn order, what the thug does. polearm master gets a bump in damage if the thug moves into them, sentinel gets a bump if the thug attacks the ally, Great weapon master gets a bump if you kill a thug. Your average DPR each round will change. If they are fighting Psychic Gray Ooze your going to get a different winner. So finding the Superior weapon in scenario X is only useful for scenario X.

Ummm... no? Nothing about the maths changes just because you hit 2nd level?
Unless you're talking reckless attack, but that has its own downsides that also have to be considered.

Except the thread is the highest AC and Damage at level 1...if your level 2 that not longer applies and any ability that might adjust damage at level 2 does not apply for level 1 characters. Like Reckless attack as you said.

 

[ClaytonCross]

have fun doing meaningless crunch.

The goal of most crunch is to get A decent approximation to compare in game effectiveness of various abilities. Most of us find doing some of that kind of crunch to be fun and interesting.

Your crunch isn’t trying to get any kind of approximation with which to compare in game effectiveness. It’s just not meaningful information.

Which is why I’m saying have fun if that’s what ya wanna do. Just don’t expect many here to jump on board given the way you are doing it

You are correct in that trying to get max damage is meaningless because no one gets max damage all the time and it does not reflect actual damage. Also, neither does DPR adjusted with % to hit because it does not take into account adjusting battle conditions like flanking advantage, reactions due to enemy movement, bad or good player rolls, the 0 sum of a miss, the variations in damage rolls, damage limit of attack vs NPC due to exceeding their HP.

What your doing is exactly the same thing I am doing. I just broke it down to the simples version for comparison and to high light my goal of max damage. Quite simply every does more damage a 100% to hit than they would if they missed. Even polearm master does more damage without reducing it by miss %.

My method suites my stated goal. If people don't like my goal that's their right. But you simply don't get MAX DPR by adjusting damage by hit you get average DRP. If the goal was highest average DPR then you would be correct but that is not my stated goal.

My Max DPR vs Your Highest average DRP (vs Unknown X) are different goals.

/shrug.

 

[Chryssis]

Originally Posted by Chryssis
errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

This is a valid point, point for the sake of this specific poste. I just did not consider this as I have never built a barbarian with polearm master. That said, as FrogReaver stated, I am interested in MAX damage just as an experiment in theory crafting. It was possibly miss leading for me to even play with "to hit" in response to FrogReaver's statements because "to hit" is not max damage and it not viable relation to actual play, since in actual play your hit or you miss. You never hit for 9.9 when your minim damage is 16.

Also, We both did the math wrong because a quarterstaff is 1d6 versatile 1d8. You just copied my mistake. I had a headache when I did that so made the same mistake Elfcrusher pointed out that made before.

I actually wasnt looking at a one-handed quarterstaff although that certainly is viable if you want to have higher ac on a fighter with dueling style instead of on a barb with rage. I was looking at a glaive and thus 1d10 not 1d6, however if you want to get finicky with the comparison to hit ratios are required. example.

effects
PAM- AO when enters range, but end strike 1d4
GWM -5/+10 dmg bonus attack on kill/crit

so taking the previous ac 12 monster:
PAM 70% chance of 1d10+5 (AO) 1d10+1d4+10 = 28.5+crit dmg =29.175max
GWM 45% chance of 2d6+15 = 22+crit damage =22.35 + 5% chance of bonus attack of 22.35 =23.4675 but if first hit kills also opportunity for another attack so lets assume your min 17dmg kills everything at lvl 1. so 100% chance of a bonus attack from kill instead of crit (which would kill anyways) so 22.35 + 22.35 = 44.70max this means your war cleric actually adds nothing to the equation and is just missing the 4 rage damage per round.

but on average with hit chance
PAM 29.175*.7 =20.42DPR
GWM 22.35*.45 + (22.35*.45)*.45 =14.583375DPR

This all assumes that monsters come to you in infinite waves. if they decide to stand and wait for you to come to them gwm is better, if there is only one and it comes at you PAM is much better.

vs your war cleric at 4d6+26 (for 3 rounds) so in our infinite monsters on the scene scenario you fall way flat, likewise in a normal adventuring day, but in a short single bout you have a high DPS (I wouldn't call it honestly a DPR as it disappears after 3 attacks)
so 4d6+26 40.7max dpr until your bring hit chance into it.

I therefore crown the PAM raging barb as the DPR winner with 20.42 sustained accuracy adjusted DPR.

i just noticed something else which may swing it the other way but i'm to tired to redo all the accuracy table and maths. but none of these damage builds have used our friendly cleric of the forge to give a +1 to hit and dmg to our weapon (as was done on the AC side of the debate)

so the dmg would scale up a little for both, might bring GWM closer but i doubt it would make up the average difference.

 

[Chryssis]

You are correct in that trying to get max damage is meaningless because no one gets max damage all the time and it does not reflect actual damage. Also, neither does DPR adjusted with % to hit because it does not take into account adjusting battle conditions like flanking advantage, reactions due to enemy movement, bad or good player rolls, the 0 sum of a miss, the variations in damage rolls, damage limit of attack vs NPC due to exceeding their HP.

What your doing is exactly the same thing I am doing. I just broke it down to the simples version for comparison and to high light my goal of max damage. Quite simply every does more damage a 100% to hit than they would if they missed. Even polearm master does more damage without reducing it by miss %.

My method suites my stated goal. If people don't like my goal that's their right. But you simply don't get MAX DPR by adjusting damage by hit you get average DRP. If the goal was highest average DPR then you would be correct but that is not my stated goal.

My Max DPR vs Your Highest average DRP (vs Unknown X) are different goals.

/shrug.

granted they are different goals, but in your equation of 100% hit it is clear that anyone using GWM will do the most damage as they have a Free flat 10 damage. if you are truly looking for what is the biggest hit that can happen then you should be looking at maximized dice as well not average dice.

so barbarian GWM (with a +1 forge cleric d12 weapon) will win as long as there are opponents to attack that we assume have less hps than your 28dmg hit. resulting in a constant 56dpr. no calculations or class discussion necessary. However this 100% hit max damage scenario serves no purpose at lvl 1. you might be able to make a case for it at lvl 20 when the hit chances are more flat, but there are so many more variables that you are handwaving that it becomes Even more subjective than just handwaving accuracy.

 

[ClaytonCross]

granted they are different goals, but in your equation of 100% hit it is clear that anyone using GWM will do the most damage as they have a Free flat 10 damage. if you are truly looking for what is the biggest hit that can happen then you should be looking at maximized dice as well not average dice.

You are correct, and if you look at Page one the first post that is exactly what I did. Lowest-highest and average, perhaps including lowest and average was misleading but it kept coming up so I put it.

so barbarian GWM (with a +1 forge cleric d12 weapon) will win as long as there are opponents to attack that we assume have less hps than your 28dmg hit. resulting in a constant 56dpr. no calculations or class discussion necessary. However this 100% hit max damage scenario serves no purpose at lvl 1. you might be able to make a case for it at lvl 20 when the hit chances are more flat, but there are so many more variables that you are handwaving that it becomes Even more subjective than just handwaving accuracy.

Correct. There are in fact so many variables that any "Average DPR" conversation is really quite arbitrary and situationally dependent making that debate an exercise in futility. While MAX possible damage, may not necessarily be useful it is a measurable quantity with a defiant answer.


You can't be a Barbarian GWM and a Forge Cleric at the same time the rage bonus is +2 while Forge Cleric is +1 so everything else being the same the Barbarian will win. However, I made a separate option for multiple repeatable, in which a War Domain Cleric GWM can make two standard attacks with at the same time. But I separated them because it was pointed out that War Cleric is not persistent and its hard to qualify those against each other as we run into scenarios again, being in a 3 round fight the War Cleric wins but in a 10 round fight I have no doubt that the Barbarian GWM will win.

That said ….

Human Variant Forge Domain
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---Blessing of the Forge +1 Damage (2d6 + 14)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (2d6 + 1d4 + 14)
Range (17-30)
Average 23.5

is a contender for Single Fight Max Melee DPR (using a concentration spell)

Human Variant Rogue beats it in that category with a 33...

but I am not sure that is correct spot since it is repeatable using multiple spell slots while the magic initiate versions are not.... new category?

Multiple Fight Max Melee DPR (using a concentration spell, Limited Repeatable)?

 

[ClaytonCross]

I would assume that your ideal is that the max dpr and max defense character be the same character.meaning you need to choose between armor mastery and gwm/polearm ie when you have your fighter war cleric etc their with avg dpr of 22 and their ac is 1 lower due to no medium armor mastery or else they are sword and boarding for the ac and thus can use the armor feat. however in order for you to achieve this you are having a dex 16, using your feat for medium armor mastery (for +1 ac) and your ever present cleric of the forge helping out.

This brings up the point buy. dex 16 human. so they can be 16 str 16 dex 14 con 10 wis 8 int 8 cha if you are maximizing so assuming max hps for lvl 1. your fighter has 12 hps.
also since you bring up no plate since it costs 1500gp what are your assumptions for starting equipment? 200gp+background? fighter gear +background and you can sell everything at cost to swap around? either way scale mail is doable if you use a maul instead of a greatsword (10gp instead of 50gp)

Also a barbarian would have better survivability and damage in almost all cases vs a fighter at level 1. 1 less ac but 2 more hps, and resistance +2dmg for str attacks.

I would say at lvl 1 you are unlikely to be fighting magical attacks. so taking heavy armor mastery (+1str) with chain or splint you could drop your dex to 12 increase con to 16, increase wis to 14 for better spell saves. resulting in 1 more max hp. is the only way a defense fighter remains competitive the dr3 is a drastic increase in survivability even if you only count chainmail so 1 less ac.

Sorry it took me so long to get to your post there is a lot going on here but some good points and I did put a High AC / High single 1 handed weapon DPR Balance at the bottom... let me see what you've got.

- My first note is that D&D 5e has rules for taking the money instead of the gear in the PHB on page 143. The rules state: "When you create your character, you receive equipment based on a combination of your class and background. Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on your class and spend them on items from the lists in this chapter." The problem is that Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger get (5d4x10)gp the max it 200gp so while you can get Splint Mail with an extremely lucky role.. you don't have even have 1 silver for a club after that because you do not get background items and gold when you go this route. Studded leather 12+3Dex(at level 1), Scale Mail AC14+2 Dex and Chain mail AC16 are the only options that allow you to have armor and a weapon, not to mention a 10gp shield.

- Second note is that "Blessing of the Forge" +1 AC or Damage is a Forge Domain Cleric ability so as a level 1 single class Barbarians and Fighters don't have access to it.

- I see two basic for "optimal survivability" stats since the top contenders are human variant Barbarian/Cleric/Fighter
Strength build: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 16, WIZ 14
Dexterity build: STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, WIZ 14
+2 wisdom is the highest used mental save, perception for ambushes, and needed for cleric.
CON means more health and is great for everyone but needed for barbarian.
without Medium Armor Master your looking at base 16 for both.
With shield you get 18 for both.
With Defensive fighting style or Blessing of the Forge you get 19 for both.

- Forge Domain Cleric or Fighter the best AC since both could choose ether set of stats and make it work, however Barbarians get Rage so 50% non-magic damage. So its hard to say which is better. But I would say shield for all is good.

- That really means were are looking at 18-19AC with a shield and max with a on handed 1d8 weapon which they all have access to with a shield.

Edited your quotes below I hope you don't mind.

fighter defensive - str 16 | dex 12 | con 16 | wis 14
--Note this is not standard array and in point buy its 29/27 points--
splint mail (17 ac) Chain mail AC16
forge +1
shield +2
defensive style +1
heavy armor mastery dr3 to blg,slsh.pierce
ac 21 AC19 dr3 wis save +2 13hps
attack 1d8+3 avg 7.5

fighter offensive
ac 18 Chain mail AC16 + what? not shield with two handed weapons, and if your using the great weapon fighting style your not using defensive fighting style … so AC16
polearm/gwm and great weapon fighter style
1d10 Quarterstaff Versatile is 1d8+3+1d4+3 reroll 1+2's so avg 9.3+6 = 15.3 avg dpr or 2d6+3+10 reroll 1+2's? avg 21.3(not taking into account the previous gwm vs polearm comments on hit chance)

So I think your at 19AC 7.5 average damage on defense and 16AC with 20 damage offense.

How about:

Fighter Balance - STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, WIZ 14 HP:13
Scale Mail AC14+2 Dex with Medium Armor Master and shield for AC19
Dueling fighting Style with a Finesse 1d8 weapon for 1d8+5 with a damage range of 6-13, average 9.5

-or-

Fighter Balance - STR 16, DEX 10, CON 16, WIZ 14 HP:13
Chain mail AC16 with defensive fighting style for AC17
Polearm Master with Quarterstaff for (1d8+3)(1d4+3) with a damage range of 8-18, average 13

-or-

Fighter Balance - STR 16, DEX 10, CON 16, WIZ 14 HP:13
Chain mail AC16 with defensive fighting style for AC17
Great Weapon Master with a Great sword for 2d6+13 with a damage range of 7-25, average 20

-or-

Tortle Fighter - STR 16, DEX 10, CON 16, WIZ 14 HP:13
Tortle Natural Armor AC17 and Shield for AC19
Dueling fighting Style with a Finesse 1d8 weapon for 1d8+5 with a damage range of 6-13, average 9.5

Because Tortle,lol

Barbarian
defensive -
str 10
dex 16
con 16
wis 14
--Note this is not standard array and in point buy its 29/27 points--
scale armor (14 ac)
forge +1
shield +2
medium armor mastery +1 (dex)
ac 20 AC19 + 15hps + rage - resistance pierce blg slash
attack 1d8+3+2 = 9.5avg dpr

offensive
str 16
dex 14
con 16
wis 10
ac 17 +15hps +rage - resistances
1d10+5+1d4+5 so avg dpr 18 or 2d6+5+10 so avg dpr 21

Barbarian - STR 16, DEX 14, CON 16, WIZ 10 HP:15
Scale mail + dex= AC16
Great Weapon Master + Great sword 2d6+13+2 Rage is damage range 7-27, avg. 22

-or-

Barbarian - STR 14, DEX 16, CON 16, WIZ 10 HP:15
Scale mail, medium armor mastery, and shield= AC19
Rapier 1d6+3+2 Rage is damage range 6-11, avg. 8.5

-------- VS ---------

Human Variant War Cleric STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, WIZ 14 HP:11
---Human Variant Feat: Medium Armor Master - Scale mail AC14(Max3) and shield= AC19
---Rapier (1d8 + dex)
---War Prist Bonus Action (1d8 + 3)(1d8 + 3)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (1d8 + 3 + 1d4)(1d8 + 3 + 1d4)
DPR Range 10 - 30
DPR Average: 20

...seems like the most well rounded to me....

 

[Yunru]

Eurgh, the only good thing to come from this cesspool of a thread is that I'm now always going to list damage ranges, and accuracy along with average DPR.
Because as much as it pains me to admit it, the OP does have a point about overkill.
(Which also favours Polearm over Great Weapon btw, since it comes from 2 attacks, if the first attack drops them, you can hit someone else with the second.)

 

[ClaytonCross]

Eurgh, the only good thing to come from this cesspool of a thread is that I'm now always going to list damage ranges, and accuracy along with average DPR.
Because as much as it pains me to admit it, the OP does have a point about overkill.
(Which also favours Polearm over Great Weapon btw, since it comes from 2 attacks, if the first attack drops them, you can hit someone else with the second.)

While I don't agree this thread is a cesspool, its a conversation where points have been made and many changes to original list as a result. I do agree overkill favors Polearm Master but I have no idea how to formulate scenario variables into an answer. Polearm master is great feat and perhaps would be the winner of all things if that was something I could do but I can't so I went with max damage a steady variable with the knowledge that its not accurate in actual combat. I would also point out that just like excessive damage favors Polearm Master, Excessive to hit rolls favor Great weapon master which has been my point about not being able to account for player rolls all along. A player that rolls high to hit vs lower AC monsters with high HP is better of with great weapon master but a player with bad rolls vs High AC monsters with low HP is better with polarm master.

I will also say you and FrogReaver have me considering the value of to hit compared to bonus dice, while not in regard to highest damage but as a variant on the balance build I made at the bottom.

First we would need a solid AC to target to even run the math for "Adjusted to hit Highest Average DPR vs AC15" Not sure if that's a good qualifier. As we said that's part of the problem but its my understanding that AC15 is the average of all monsters in the monster manual... while that's still arbitrary (and out dated with Volo's guide to monster and Mordenkainen's tome of foes out) its a target so lets stack arbitrary with arbitrary going all in for a second... because if you can concede that I have a point I should concede that I have already broken down DPR into minor scenarios based on DPR source so if we can have some agreement on specific scenario then we don't need to add every option but I could put one to point out the value of polearm master and to hit.

So I was looking to make one with Polearm masters (1d8+3)(1d4+3) but with the same to hit bonus action attack...

Human Variant War Cleric STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, WIZ 14 HP:11
---Human Variant Feat: Medium Armor Master - Scale mail AC14(Max3) and shield= AC19
---Rapier (1d8 + dex)
---War Priest Bonus Action (1d8 + 3)(1d8 + 3)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (1d8 + 3 + 1d4)(1d8 + 3 + 1d4)
DPR Range 10 - 30
DPR Average: 20
Adjusted DPR with +5 to hit vs AC15 (55%) = 11 adjusted DPR
...But we could adjust this to prioritize "to hit"...

Human Variant War Cleric STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, WIZ 14 HP:11
---Human Variant Feat: Medium Armor Master - Scale mail AC14(Max3) and shield= AC19
---Rapier (1d8 + dex)
---War Priest Bonus Action (1d8 + 3)(1d8 + 3)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: Bless (1d8 + 3)(1d8 + 3)
DPR Range 8 - 22
DPR Average: 15
Adjusted DPR with +5 to hit (+1-4 Bless) vs AC15 (60%+65%+70%+75%)/4 = 10.125 adjusted DPR

...hmm.. that's not what I expected to happen, if I am honest. I realize its because the 2.5 of the attacks is constant while I did the adjustment as 4 roles then averaged...

Adjusted DPR with +5 to hit (+2.5 Bless) vs AC15 (67.5%) = 10.125 adjusted DPR ...nope its right, got the same thing... odd.

 

[cram]

Here's one i'm surprised i haven't seen yet:
Lizardfolk barbarian w/ a 18 in con
16 dex
This alone gives a 23
+A shield onto this and that's a 25 without ANY magic

This can also work with monk but not as well

Its debatable whether the lizardfolk and barb unarmoured defenses should stack but that's a conversation to have with your DM

 

[TwoSix]

Its debatable whether the lizardfolk and barb unarmoured defenses should stack but that's a conversation to have with your DM

It isn't really debatable, they don't stack. "Only use one armor calculation at a time" been a thing since 5e came out. Your DM could choose to overrule it, of course, but that's along the lines of houseruling proficiency bonus or spell progressions, i.e. a choice to modify the framework of the game, not a ruling on a gray area.

 

[ECMO3]

So Just playing around.

Limiting builds to Point buy so they don't require crazy starting rolls, basic day 1 character that you would show up with built with in the rules. So no 1,500gp platemail or magic items...etc. Also, I separated them by conditional situations to allow for more build fun and because maybe someone would argue static > a single use concentration but that does make the single use spell AC wrong.

Can anyone improve on these?

Static Max AC

Warforged Fighter or Forge Cleric
---Chain mail = AC16
---Shield bonus +2 AC
---Integrated Protection +1 AC
---Defensive Fighting style +1 AC / Blessing of the Forge +1 AC
Total AC 20 (max AC without a feat)

Human Variant Fighter or Forge Cleric
---Scale Mail = 14AC (+2 Max Dex Bonus)
---Human Variant Feat: Medium Armor Master - 14AC (+3 Max Dex Bonus)
---16 Dex +3 AC
---Shield bonus +2 AC
---Defensive Fighting style +1 AC / Blessing of the Forge +1 AC
Total AC 20

Single fight Max AC (using a concentration spell)

Warforged Forge Cleric
---Chain mail = AC16
---Shield bonus +2 AC
---Integrated Protection +1 AC
---Blessing of the Forge +1 AC
---Shield of Faith spell +2
Total AC 22 (max AC without a feat)

Human Variant Forge Cleric
---Scale Mail = 14AC (+2 Max Dex Bonus)
---Human Variant Feat: Medium Armor Master - 14AC (+3 Max Dex Bonus)
---16 Dex +3 AC
---Shield bonus +2 AC
---Blessing of the Forge +1 AC
---Shield of Faith spell +2
Total AC 22

Single Combat round Max AC

Human Variant Forge Cleric
---Chain mail = AC16
---Shield +2
---Blessing of the Forge +1
---Shield of Faith spell +2 (concentration)
---Magic initiate: Sorcerer or Wizard for Shield +5
Total AC 26

--If we assume all attacks hit low AC early game enemies and not counting random critical hits.--
(Why? Because otherwise we get into "what if" arguments about moving numbers and changing scenarios that will support the agreement of the person making it)
No reactions (because the setup is not player controlled)
No AC8 or AC19 (if you hit AC no longer matters)
No who does what first (because in a real game that is fluid)
No limiting damage to the HP max of a specific enemy (because we are not comparing enemies but Player characters and enemies will very from game to game)
Just raw damage (which is why I did a range and an average)
That just cuts down on arguments. No it is not 100% accurate to a game but their is no accounting for Player rolls or GM tactics and NPC choices.
Also, getting a DPR adjusted by % to hit that gives you a damage less than the minimum is not accurate. In a really game you miss and do 0 or you hit and do at least the minimum. 0 is the same for everyone so I am just looking at what happens when you hit.

Static Max DPR Melee

Human Variant Barbarian (Possible AC15)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---Rage +2 (2d6 + 15)
DPR Range 17-27
DPR Average: 22

Static Max DPR ranged weapon

Human Variant Fighter (Possible AC16)
---Heavy Crossbow (1d10 + dex)
---16 dex (1d10 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Sharpshooter +10 (1d10 + 13)
DPR Range 14 - 23
DPR Average: 18.5

Max single round damage from a single target spell
Inflict Wounds 3d10 Necrotic (Cleric, Divine Soul Sorcerer)
DPR Range 3 - 30
DPR Average: 16.5

Max single round damage from an AoE spell vs 2 targets
Burning Hands 3d6 Fire x2 (Wizard, Sorcerer, Light Domain Cleric, Fiend Patron Warlock)
DPR Range 6 - 36
DPR Average: 21

Single Fight Max Melee DPR (Limited Repeatable x3)

Human Variant War Cleric (Possible AC16)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---War Prist Bonus Action (2d6 + 13)(2d6 + 13)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (2d6 + 1d4 + 13)(2d6 + 1d4 + 13)
DPR Range 32 - 58
DPR Average: 45

Multiple Fight Max Melee DPR
(using a concentration spell, Limited Repeatable)

Human Variant Forge Domain
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---Blessing of the Forge +1 Damage (2d6 + 14)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (2d6 + 1d4 + 14)
Range (17-30)
Average 23.5

Single Fight Max Melee DPR (using a concentration spell)
Human Variant Rogue (Possible AC15)

• Shortsword Light/Finesse (1d6 + dex)
• Shortsword Light/Finesse - off hand (1d6 + dex)(1d6) or (2d6 + dex)
• 16 Dex (2d6 + 3)
• Human Variant Feat: Magic Initiate, Warlock, Hex (4d6 + 3)
• Sneak Attack (5d6 + 3)

DPR Range 8 - 33
DPR Average: 20.5

---------------------High AC / High single 1 handed weapon DPR Balance build Honorable mention-----
These builds have a high AC of 19 a high Max damage of 30 and without the negative to hit of great weapon master and a higher die second attack than Polearm master results in a higher average Damage Per Round that is actually above its minimum damage making it perhaps the most solid all around build I know of for actual play.

No feats and standard Array
Warforged War Cleric STR 16, DEX 12, CON 15, WIZ 14, INT10, CHA8 HP:10
---Chain mail AC16, Shield +2, and Integrated Protection +1= AC19
---Longsword (1d8 + str)
---War Priest Bonus Action (1d8 + 3)(1d8 + 3)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (1d8 + 3 + 1d4)(1d8 + 3 + 1d4)
DPR Range 10 - 30
DPR Average: 20
Adjusted DPR with +5 to hit vs AC15 (55%) = 11 adjusted DPR
*Strength adds to hit and to damage of both attacks so you have to choose between 14 wisdom and 16 constitution so you ether have 1 use of War Priest and 11 health or 2 uses of War Priest and 10 health. War priest recharges on a long rest. Point Buy allows Str16, Con16, and Wiz14 with racial bonuses, with 4 points to play with.

With Feat and point buy
Human Variant War Cleric STR 10, DEX 16, CON 16, WIZ 14, INT8, CHA8 HP:11 (Max will for War Priest)
---Human Variant Feat: Medium Armor Master - Scale mail AC14(Max3) and shield= AC19
---Rapier (1d8 + dex)
---War Priest Bonus Action (1d8 + 3)(1d8 + 3)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (1d8 + 3 + 1d4)(1d8 + 3 + 1d4)
DPR Range 10 - 30
DPR Average: 20
Adjusted DPR with +5 to hit vs AC15 (55%) = 11 adjusted DPR

So I think this is a little unfair because clerics get their subclass at level 1, if you made it level 3 I think it would be a lot different.

That said, max damage ranged probably goes to a variant human or custom lineage Rogue with a heavy crossbow if you assume Sneak Attack is "static"
--Heavy Crossbow (1d10 + dex)
---16 dex (1d10 + 3)
---Human Variant/custom lineage Feat: Sharpshooter +10 (1d10 + 13)
--- sneak attack (1d6)
DPR Range 15 - 29
DPR Average: 22

also a Warlock with GWM and a 16 strength running hex can beat the forge cleric for multiple fight MAX Melee DPR

Multiple Fight Max Melee DPR
(using a concentration spell, Limited Repeatable)

Human Variant/custom Warlock (any patron)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---Hex +1d6 (2d6 + 1d6 + 13)
Range (16-31)
Average 23.5 Note despite the same average for a normal hit, the warlock does 1 hp more damage on a crit and therefore wins this as a tie breaker.

Of course it is important to point out these (and the rest of the examples) are a white room build. We are ignoring attack rolls here and assuming every attack hits. If you consider attack rolls the damage is far less "in the real world".

 

[ClaytonCross]

So I think this is a little unfair because clerics get their subclass at level 1, if you made it level 3 I think it would be a lot different.

... so what is your point with this statement? ... This exercise is not about being fair or their would be no "best" and no point in doing it. It would indeed look different at every level, but it would still not be "fair" at any level and their would always be a winner often different than the one level below or above because of the shift of features. However its reasonable to say most games will start at level 1 making it the most common level anyone can 100% achieve since characters some times die before level 2 and what data we do have confirms that many many players don't play above level 10. That has certainly been true at table I have played because many of GMs ended their campaigns around there because they round them to complicated and characters too powerful for their fun in disregard to player enjoyment. Adding to that every level adds complexity and requires more knowledge of class features combinations with less chance of characters that use them. The higher you go the less viable and relevant the conversation becomes because the chance of players bringing them to the table, surviving to that level, or being at the level of when they would be the paragon of defense/offense creates a massive diminishment in returns on the exercise.

Wow... Two new winners. Awesome job.
I am surprised no one else (including me) realized the same archer build could be used with a rogue.
I am actually fairly happy to see a Warlock on the list. I went ahead and left the Forge Cleric as an Honorable mention because that is a super close run off but of course close only counts for horseshoes and hand grenades so the Warlock wins.

Of course it is important to point out these (and the rest of the examples) are a white room build. We are ignoring attack rolls here and assuming every attack hits. If you consider attack rolls the damage is far less "in the real world".

Of course. I put that in the rules. I had a long thread discussion in the past about using percentages to hit and how they are actually no more accurate or less white room than this due to the 0 sum of a miss and that while the monster manual may average about AC15 for monsters that in no way reflects the monster(s) your GM chooses to run against you, or the reduction of actual damage from over kill.

I choose to ignore misses because they are 0 damage and not variable between characters. I put a damage range to show possibility and an average for realistic expectations. The exercise however is for the highest possible damage which makes for a static clear goal no matter the enemy you fight or how many times you miss. It is the only solid/static metric in this conversation due to it being about a fluid game of random roles and variable enemies.

For example: In a level 1 encounter that lasts 10 turns, it is completely possible for your Human Variant Great weapon Master to not be able to get to an enemy an enemy for 3 of the turns ( 0 damage x3), Have enemies killed by your heavy crossbow rogue holding his action on 2 turns (0 damage x2), The warlock misses 2 attacks vs a Hobgoblin he is able to engage with its AC18 (0 damage x2). Roles a crit with a natural 20, roles max damage of 31 on the 11 HP hobgoblin (11 damage). Also one shots 2 Goblins with AC15 and HP 7 along the way (14 damage). ... A 10 round damage total of 25 damage... with the potential of 310 damage, an expectation of 235 damage, but still possibly happy with 3 kills because the Warlock only had 11 hit point, got hit, healed, and hit again and is barely hanging on with 2 hit points, just glad to have survived the fight.

So yes, its not true reflection of play, or fair, but it is still useful and more to the point a fun exercise. AC... is actually way more useful than damage (especially if your planning to play the party "tank") but people want to focus on damage to the conversation tends to get pulled there.

 

[ECMO3]

errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

Actually I think the winner is fighter with custom lineage and piercer feat for an 18 strength and two-weapon fighting style wielding 2 short swords. Average damage vs AC12 is 12.98. That number includes the extra dice on a crit and rerolling the lowest dice 3 or below (when there is one).

Also I am not sure using Rage is fair. If you do that then the Hexblade PAM would have the Barbarian beat as Hexblade curse at level 1 is +2 damage and crits on a 19 or a 20.