D&D 5E [D&D 5e] Level 1 Max Min Fun DPR and AC

[Chryssis]

I am not saying your wrong but their are 2 considerations here.

1. Enemy selection is GM dependent which means what your saying will not be true all the time with every GM. Even in that range the only common enemies under CR1 for level 1 fights with a higher than AC15 are Guards at AC16 and Hobgoblin AC18. The majority are AC12 and under.

- For example, I just started a new group and they fought AC 8 Zombies on their first mission...

2. Players rolls can make all the difference. I roll BAD so me rolling 3 attacks will mean less damage because I commonly miss all the attacks, so more attacks, statistically should be more damage but when I am only ever getting on success in a round I do better with single powerful strikes. Our party high roller on other hand doesn't miss hardly ever so he only cares about max average on hit. So only worried about hit because its a lot of math for an arbitrary number.

3. You only need need 300 xp in a group before you level to 2 and the entire post is irrelevant.

I will consed The typical "rats in the cellar" is a thing and rats have AC10. So while I don't think its statistically relevant number at tables due to player/GM variation... sure lets play with "to hit"

Most players have a +5 attack at level 1 because its something they can control with point buy, standard array, and even rolling stats first and picking a class that fist those stats using the highest for their primary combat stat. Venus rat AC10

80% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .8 = 11.2 DPR
55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13) = [20] x.55 = 11 DPR

So for typical rat in the cellar murder they are pretty much the same. however if are the Raging Strength Barbarian I listed as #1 static damage....

55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.55 = 12.1 DPR

Your still going to out DPR that Polearm Master...so.. my #1 stands.

But that's not the majority of low level monsters you say? Well AC12 is.
70% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .7 = 9.8 DPR
45% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.45 = 9.9 DPR
...and the barbarian is scraping a head.

Now if your GM likes high AC monsters at level 1 so your fighting a Hobgoblin AC18 out the gate and you roll better "to hit" than me, and do at least average damage... your going to beat my 0 DPR from missing every round. But that's so much speculation at that point its not worth trying to measure in my opinion. Primarily because I don't remember any GM I have ever played with making me fight enemies at level with an AC higher than 12 because they were worried they would party wipe in the first game. That diminishes every level and by 5 the gloves are completely off. But this thread is about level 1 characters, not whats going to be best for you later on as that is a lot more complicated.

errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

 

[FrogReaver]

errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

Didn’t you hear what he said. He sets all chances to hit at 100%

So he’s at 18 vs 22 and GWM still wins

its that kind of silliness that is the reason we are all going to give up on this thread

 

[Yunru]

1. Enemy selection is GM dependent which means what your saying will not be true all the time with every GM. Even in that range the only common enemies under CR1 for level 1 fights with a higher than AC15 are Guards at AC16 and Hobgoblin AC18. The majority are AC12 and under.

Yes, but they have to have an AC of less than 10 for GWM to be superior at 1st level. Obviously that number increases each time the player's attack bonus does.

3. You only need need 300 xp in a group before you level to 2 and the entire post is irrelevant.

Ummm... no? Nothing about the maths changes just because you hit 2nd level?
Unless you're talking reckless attack, but that has its own downsides that also have to be considered.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Then this whole thread is meaningless.

But through your own addition even your calculations don't account for actual play.

..omitted..

Though there is a lost and incalculatable DPR component to GWM and that's the bonus action attack on enemy death. That actually is pretty common to cause with any 2 handed weapon in the early levels and considerably ups dpr at low levels when you have a chance of killing most enemies in 1 or 2 hits. It's actually the better part of the feat until you get to about level 3-5.

So from an actual game play stand point you are not wrong on DPR. The purpose of the thread originally is AC... which is easy to determine and hard to debate. My DPR addition was and is just a max possible DPR which is what I call it. Its not possible to reflect actual game play with to hit because when one hit kills an enemy even with a 5% chance and they take the hit that exceeds the HP... they are dead. Point in case that that the listed attack of GWM shows 6.75 DPR when its not possible to do less than 16. Its never 6.75. Its 0 or the target is dead. It is also pointless to talk about max DPR in a real game and not instead of max variable because their are only a very few NPCs under CR1 that can take 16 damage and live. making anything higher pointless over kill. That alone reduces "MAX DPR" into an arbitrary number game for the sake of a numbers game. Which I did and is fun to me.

But your trying to cater to a specific fighting style based on some desire for it to be "best"... I don't care which style does the highest damage and would love for your to beat the Human Variant War Cleric (GWM) buld however … I am going for max possible damage per round which means if your missing your not doing your max damage. Does that reflect actual play. No. The goal is not consistent average in play that's a different goal.

 

[ClaytonCross]

errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

This is a valid point, point for the sake of this specific poste. I just did not consider this as I have never built a barbarian with polearm master. That said, as FrogReaver stated, I am interested in MAX damage just as an experiment in theory crafting. It was possibly miss leading for me to even play with "to hit" in response to FrogReaver's statements because "to hit" is not max damage and it not viable relation to actual play, since in actual play your hit or you miss. You never hit for 9.9 when your minim damage is 16.

Also, We both did the math wrong because a quarterstaff is 1d6 versatile 1d8. You just copied my mistake. I had a headache when I did that so made the same mistake Elfcrusher pointed out that made before.

 

[FrogReaver]

have fun doing meaningless crunch.

The goal of most crunch is to get A decent approximation to compare in game effectiveness of various abilities. Most of us find doing some of that kind of crunch to be fun and interesting.

Your crunch isn’t trying to get any kind of approximation with which to compare in game effectiveness. It’s just not meaningful information.

Which is why I’m saying have fun if that’s what ya wanna do. Just don’t expect many here to jump on board given the way you are doing it

 

[ClaytonCross]

Yes, but they have to have an AC of less than 10 for GWM to be superior at 1st level. Obviously that number increases each time the player's attack bonus does.

Sure, and if the topic was combat Superiority instead of highest possible DPR then that could be the way to go. I don't really want to go that route because its scenario based and if you change the scenario you change superiority. For example if your doing DPR and you let great weapon master kill and enemy then get a third strike, doesn't that mean its going to do more damage than Polearm Master? That changes things and it breaks down into "if you do it this way this style does more damage" .."but if you do it this way this weapon does more damage" their is no constancy in the answer because one person will say yes you get the extra great weapon master attack and another you don't. Striate math of which has the highest possible damage based on 100% to hit is not debatable. It's just strait math. I understand that is not battle accurate but neither is %hit DPR because it does not account for the 0 sum of a miss not does it remain consistent for AC and HP of your enemies. You can't do more than 3 damage to a Crawling Claw because it only has 2 HP... which makes the argument of max damage silly. If you want to determine damage with consistency you need a consistent scenario. So I used 100% because it removes enemies, it removes the AC variable, it removes the HP variable, it removes reactions, it removes movement action order, it removes player rolls (to hit and damage), and it removes enemies killing you before achieving the DPR. All these things effect how useful a weapon is and that will differ from campaign to campaign and fight to fight.

The intent is max damage. If you were going to setup to try and achieve MAX damage for comparison you need a base line. 100% to hit unlimited HP is my target. Like attacking a combat dummy. If you want to setup a different SPECIFIC scenario go ahead and list the scenario explain why and I will list what we get as max damage for that scenario as its own entry.

Example. If you want to set best weapon when fighting side by side with an ally vs TWO Thugs AC11 HP32, turn order, what the thug does. polearm master gets a bump in damage if the thug moves into them, sentinel gets a bump if the thug attacks the ally, Great weapon master gets a bump if you kill a thug. Your average DPR each round will change. If they are fighting Psychic Gray Ooze your going to get a different winner. So finding the Superior weapon in scenario X is only useful for scenario X.

Ummm... no? Nothing about the maths changes just because you hit 2nd level?
Unless you're talking reckless attack, but that has its own downsides that also have to be considered.

Except the thread is the highest AC and Damage at level 1...if your level 2 that not longer applies and any ability that might adjust damage at level 2 does not apply for level 1 characters. Like Reckless attack as you said.

 

[ClaytonCross]

have fun doing meaningless crunch.

The goal of most crunch is to get A decent approximation to compare in game effectiveness of various abilities. Most of us find doing some of that kind of crunch to be fun and interesting.

Your crunch isn’t trying to get any kind of approximation with which to compare in game effectiveness. It’s just not meaningful information.

Which is why I’m saying have fun if that’s what ya wanna do. Just don’t expect many here to jump on board given the way you are doing it

You are correct in that trying to get max damage is meaningless because no one gets max damage all the time and it does not reflect actual damage. Also, neither does DPR adjusted with % to hit because it does not take into account adjusting battle conditions like flanking advantage, reactions due to enemy movement, bad or good player rolls, the 0 sum of a miss, the variations in damage rolls, damage limit of attack vs NPC due to exceeding their HP.

What your doing is exactly the same thing I am doing. I just broke it down to the simples version for comparison and to high light my goal of max damage. Quite simply every does more damage a 100% to hit than they would if they missed. Even polearm master does more damage without reducing it by miss %.

My method suites my stated goal. If people don't like my goal that's their right. But you simply don't get MAX DPR by adjusting damage by hit you get average DRP. If the goal was highest average DPR then you would be correct but that is not my stated goal.

My Max DPR vs Your Highest average DRP (vs Unknown X) are different goals.

/shrug.

 

[Chryssis]

Originally Posted by Chryssis
errrm why are you comparing a polearm fighter with a raging barb gwm...would the comparison not be a raging barb polearm vs a raging barb gwm which puts it even More in polearms favour since you would get an additional +2dmg from the but end stike..

so vs ac 12
70% Polearm Master 1d10 + 1d4 +6+4Rage (18 *.7=12.6)
45% Great Weapon Master 2d6+13+2 (22*.45=9.9)

This is a valid point, point for the sake of this specific poste. I just did not consider this as I have never built a barbarian with polearm master. That said, as FrogReaver stated, I am interested in MAX damage just as an experiment in theory crafting. It was possibly miss leading for me to even play with "to hit" in response to FrogReaver's statements because "to hit" is not max damage and it not viable relation to actual play, since in actual play your hit or you miss. You never hit for 9.9 when your minim damage is 16.

Also, We both did the math wrong because a quarterstaff is 1d6 versatile 1d8. You just copied my mistake. I had a headache when I did that so made the same mistake Elfcrusher pointed out that made before.

I actually wasnt looking at a one-handed quarterstaff although that certainly is viable if you want to have higher ac on a fighter with dueling style instead of on a barb with rage. I was looking at a glaive and thus 1d10 not 1d6, however if you want to get finicky with the comparison to hit ratios are required. example.

effects
PAM- AO when enters range, but end strike 1d4
GWM -5/+10 dmg bonus attack on kill/crit

so taking the previous ac 12 monster:
PAM 70% chance of 1d10+5 (AO) 1d10+1d4+10 = 28.5+crit dmg =29.175max
GWM 45% chance of 2d6+15 = 22+crit damage =22.35 + 5% chance of bonus attack of 22.35 =23.4675 but if first hit kills also opportunity for another attack so lets assume your min 17dmg kills everything at lvl 1. so 100% chance of a bonus attack from kill instead of crit (which would kill anyways) so 22.35 + 22.35 = 44.70max this means your war cleric actually adds nothing to the equation and is just missing the 4 rage damage per round.

but on average with hit chance
PAM 29.175*.7 =20.42DPR
GWM 22.35*.45 + (22.35*.45)*.45 =14.583375DPR

This all assumes that monsters come to you in infinite waves. if they decide to stand and wait for you to come to them gwm is better, if there is only one and it comes at you PAM is much better.

vs your war cleric at 4d6+26 (for 3 rounds) so in our infinite monsters on the scene scenario you fall way flat, likewise in a normal adventuring day, but in a short single bout you have a high DPS (I wouldn't call it honestly a DPR as it disappears after 3 attacks)
so 4d6+26 40.7max dpr until your bring hit chance into it.

I therefore crown the PAM raging barb as the DPR winner with 20.42 sustained accuracy adjusted DPR.

i just noticed something else which may swing it the other way but i'm to tired to redo all the accuracy table and maths. but none of these damage builds have used our friendly cleric of the forge to give a +1 to hit and dmg to our weapon (as was done on the AC side of the debate)

so the dmg would scale up a little for both, might bring GWM closer but i doubt it would make up the average difference.

 

[Chryssis]

You are correct in that trying to get max damage is meaningless because no one gets max damage all the time and it does not reflect actual damage. Also, neither does DPR adjusted with % to hit because it does not take into account adjusting battle conditions like flanking advantage, reactions due to enemy movement, bad or good player rolls, the 0 sum of a miss, the variations in damage rolls, damage limit of attack vs NPC due to exceeding their HP.

What your doing is exactly the same thing I am doing. I just broke it down to the simples version for comparison and to high light my goal of max damage. Quite simply every does more damage a 100% to hit than they would if they missed. Even polearm master does more damage without reducing it by miss %.

My method suites my stated goal. If people don't like my goal that's their right. But you simply don't get MAX DPR by adjusting damage by hit you get average DRP. If the goal was highest average DPR then you would be correct but that is not my stated goal.

My Max DPR vs Your Highest average DRP (vs Unknown X) are different goals.

/shrug.

granted they are different goals, but in your equation of 100% hit it is clear that anyone using GWM will do the most damage as they have a Free flat 10 damage. if you are truly looking for what is the biggest hit that can happen then you should be looking at maximized dice as well not average dice.

so barbarian GWM (with a +1 forge cleric d12 weapon) will win as long as there are opponents to attack that we assume have less hps than your 28dmg hit. resulting in a constant 56dpr. no calculations or class discussion necessary. However this 100% hit max damage scenario serves no purpose at lvl 1. you might be able to make a case for it at lvl 20 when the hit chances are more flat, but there are so many more variables that you are handwaving that it becomes Even more subjective than just handwaving accuracy.