D&D 5E D&D and who it's aimed at

[Ruin Explorer]

I definitely wasn’t thinking about something like TWD, but I also wasn’t assuming leisure activities have to be escapist. Hereditary is basically a modern horror classic at this point, and there’s nothing escapist about that movie. It’s punishing, relentless, and deeply disturbing. That’s not for everyone but it’s certainly for a lot of people.

I haven't and will not watch Hereditary based on comments like this (I mean...), but the vast majority of horror movies are absolutely primarily escapism, including contemporaries of Hereditary like The VVitch, Midsommar (harrowing beginning notwithstanding) and The Babadook. It's just the escape is via extreme/bizarre horror.

And sorry if I'm unclear but I think just because something isn't "escapist" in the sense of "an upbeat fantasy/SF tale" (which seems to be the conventional usage of "escapist" these days), doesn't mean it's not essentially "escapism" that is the reason to view it. I don't think people come out of Midsommar, say, having learned or thought about cults or pagan rituals, I think it's basically just a thrillride with a particular vehicle.

Truly bleak and can't even be watched as escapism would be something like Breaking the Waves imo. Von Trier in general - though I do notice a strong correlation between Von Trier enthusiasts and very well-off middle/upper-class people who last had a genuinely bad thing happen to them 5+ years ago lol.

 

[Smackpixi]

It seems like we just keep obsessing on age demographics as if that actually means something. Plenty of teenagers are into dark “adult” stuff. Movies are PG-13 so teenagers can buy tickets for them, a lot of those kids may prefer more sex and more gore. For DnD books they want to be on the shelf at Target and be fine for everybody, people can always add the gore and naked people at the table. The lack of harlots and severed heads gets portrayed as catering to kids who maybe shouldn’t be exposed to that, really I think it’s more about catering to all the adults who don’t want that...people who can go see Saw but don’t want to.

The shift in product targeting does seem to be providing more space for the role playing and dress up drama club style of play. More talking and less attack first, ask questions later. In so far as stat blocks are always available, i’m guessing WoTC feels the kill ‘em all style of play is still plenty well provided for. They are targeting wider demographics, not just race/gender stuff, but in additudes, play style, and type of fun. This comes out as vague inadequately specific and lacking in details sometimes, because I think their goal is that the DM and players fill in dark or light, funny or gross details as they prefer.

The art is not so much more kidsy sunshine as it is just more colorful. I think this is both a reaction to medieval brown, a nod to the dress up role play style, and perhaps most of all, an effect of it being created on computers where endless colors are easier than ever before.

 

[Mercurius]

All leisure activates are silly. D&D, sports, there all a stupid waste of time.

That's the point. We do serious dull stuff all day to earn a living, then we do something silly to get away from that.

I hear your point, but can't resist saying that I kind of seeing it in reverse: Whatever gives us pleasure is not a "stupid waste of time," and some of it -- the stuff that touches us deeply, or inspires a creative spark - is what provides a sense of meaning and joy.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

I haven't and will not watch Hereditary based on comments like this (I mean...), but the vast majority of horror movies are absolutely primarily escapism, including contemporaries of Hereditary like The VVitch, Midsommar (harrowing beginning notwithstanding) and The Babadook. It's just the escape is via extreme/bizarre horror.

And sorry if I'm unclear but I think just because something isn't "escapist" in the sense of "an upbeat fantasy/SF tale" (which seems to be the conventional usage of "escapist" these days), doesn't mean it's not essentially "escapism" that is the reason to view it. I don't think people come out of Midsommar, say, having learned or thought about cults or pagan rituals, I think it's basically just a thrillride with a particular vehicle.

Truly bleak and can't even be watched as escapism would be something like Breaking the Waves imo. Von Trier in general - though I do notice a strong correlation between Von Trier enthusiasts and very well-off middle/upper-class people who last had a genuinely bad thing happen to them 5+ years ago lol.

We could debate all day about the meaning and context of escapism. But my main point was to push back on the idea of silliness as a default quality of leisure activities, and the related idea that if your leisure activity of choice is low on or bereft of silliness, you're doing it wrong. Games can be silly or serious. Not everyone has to like the idea of playing Twilight 2000 or a similarly dark game in another genre, but that's just a preference, same as wanting to goof it up.

(Also if you watched and liked Midsommar then you can handle Hereditary. Don't deprive yourself of greatness!)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

(Also if you watched and liked Midsommar then you can handle Hereditary. Don't deprive yourself of greatness!)

Okay maybe I will! I do sometimes love a good horror movie. Thank you!

 

[Mercurius]

I think the target demographic of AD&D was high school and up. 12 would have been a little young to be a target demographic, but Gary probably wouldn't turn away kids that young(and I think his kids played at those young ages), though he probably would have modified his games a bit and perhaps not included harlots in those games. He'd probably have that same expectation of DMs at large that ran games for younger kids.

I don't think OD&D and early AD&D had a target audience. It was more like a bunch of nerds discovering something fun and new, and wanting to share it with whoever was interested. Once bigger money got involved, and especially once a corporate vibe took over TSR, things like target audiences became more center stage.

The big difference now is that D&D is mainstream. Even up to and through 4E, it was still very niche - and the bulk of the player base was long-time players. So we're in strange waters, because D&D has gone mainstream - even more so than the 1980s, if only due to the changing nature of media, but also, I think, because "geek culture" is overall more mainstream. WotC (Hasbro) wants to maintain and grow, so they're particularly conscious (maybe overly so) to what is trending right now, in terms of socio-cultural sensibilities, fantasy aesthetics, trends, etc.

And they're also very cognizant of the fact that not only has the player base greatly expanded, but it is now much younger. Meaning, there was the first Boom in the early 80s when Gen Xers got into D&D, then in the 90s it was mostly Gen Xers continuing to play, and older Millenials coming on board. So there was still youth, but a large segment was now in their 20s and 30s. This continued into the 2000s, with the original "D&D Boomers" (Gen Xers) entering in their 30s and 40s, and the smaller "second wave" (Millenials) in their teens and 20s. What WotC discovered is that the younger Millenials--or first true Digital Natives--weren't jumping on board - the "third wave" wasn't really a wave but a ripple; it was mostly maintaining the remnants of the first and second waves. This is partially why they changed things up with 4E, trying to appeal to video games players.

Well, we knew what happened - not only did it not work--in terms of increasing the player base--but it fractured the player base. So WotC said, "better to have a bird in hand than two in the bush," and tried to get the band back together. Thus, 5E. And then something remarkable happened: it not only caught on with younger folks--younger Millenials and Zennials--but exploded.

So we have a new Boom, and the player base are mostly those new to the game. If you first played D&D in 2014 or later, chances are you are relatively young - a Zennial or, at least, a younger Millenial. So that's what they're looking at as their primary target audience: people who grew up with iPhones, for whom the Marvel Cinematic Universe looms larger than any other "geek franchise," although still augmented with stuff like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and Game of Thrones.

 

[Medic]

Drow being exclusively misandrist, murderous, backstabbing dominatrices who are the only elf POCs (except the allegedly-few Noble Defectors, like the veritable mountain of Drizzt clones) was not particularly good for the game either, and a better, more interesting space of stories can be told when this race is more complicated.

Loviatar spare me, this was never the case, at least not by the time AD&D's Faiths & Pantheons rolled around. The Drow had an entire pantheon of deities competing for their worship, and even entire cities that have patrons that weren't Lolth. They even had secular organizations with Drow in them such as the Underdark Anarchists' Fellowship and Affiliated Merchants of the Underdark! 5th Edition just diminished their influence and walked back on the idea that Spider Mom needed to maintain her stranglehold on the Drow because she was hemorrhaging followers. Aside, both sun elves and wild elves have dark skin, and neither are considered evil.

I'd imagine that this was done to bring back "Classic Drow" like the ones portrayed in a certain widely-recognized series of novels. That's something that a lot of early 5e content is guilty of, both in fluff and crunch, actually - trying to make a "Greatest Hits" version of D&D by resurrecting old sacred cows in the vain hope of winning the grogs back. If I had to take a guess as to why, it was the "civil and rational" reaction to 4th Edition completely reinventing the wheel that made them reluctant to push the envelope.

That's exactly what Disney does, though. It takes old fairy tales and other stories, defangs them and cleans them up in order to make them more palatable for a broader audience, and then releases a movie about it.

Hmm, when I saw the word "Disneyfied" I imagined it as an emotionally-charged expression made by angry grognards to convey the amorphous discontent they felt at things becoming newer and shinier. Framing it like this, however, gives me a new understanding that I lacked previously. Thank you.

This happens to be a great springboard from which to elaborate on the post I made previously by giving a handful of specific examples.

• The Red Wizards used to be prolific slavers that reaped the benefits of employing forced labor on their large plantations as well as having a steady supply of fodder for Evil Wizard™ experiments.
• A city-state of Drow used to rule Dambrath as suzerains through a race-based hierarchy enforced by their half-elf progeny, with humans being second-class citizens.
• Women are not equal to men in Calimshan, and do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities.
• Beshaba's clerics used to leverage their reputation to extort level zero commoners for money, succor, and "companionship" whenever they felt like it without facing much in the way of consequences.

The items on this list are all obvious "bad guy" activities, or at least explain why my level one rogue would rather risk her life looking for a big treasure payout in the Dungeon of Despair than stay at home. I want to make it clear that these things were not retconned out of existence, never to be seen again. Wizards just... throws a sheet over it, so that casual observers don't need to view and interact with day-to-day hardships.

 

[doctorhook]

Okay maybe I will! I do sometimes love a good horror movie. Thank you!

Full disclosure: I love horror movies, but Hereditary scared the crap out of me like no other movie before or since. I rewatched the ending the next day to help me get closure on what I had watched. I loved that movie… but years later I still can’t watch it again. Even hearing a certain song or catching myself clicking my tongue are enough to put me on edge. That film doesn’t do jump scares, it does visceral terror. Other than Hereditary, I never ever react to horror movies. Hereditary is something else; Midsommar is eerie and gruesome, but not on the same tier.

Your experience may vary, just telling you that Hereditary is in a class of its own.

EDIT: And now that I’ve hyped it up, you’ll probably find it super lame lol. Ahh well.

 

[Maxperson]

Hmm, when I saw the word "Disneyfied" I imagined it as an emotionally-charged expression made by angry grognards to convey the amorphous discontent they felt at things becoming newer and shinier. Framing it like this, however, gives me a new understanding that I lacked previously. Thank you.

Sure thing. A lot of people who use it are emotionally charged and/or angry, but it's not from "newer and shinier," but rather because they like their games to have those fangs and be a bit unclean(how much varies greatly) and the new editions cleaned it up.

 

[Maxperson]

Drow being exclusively misandrist, murderous, backstabbing dominatrices who are the only elf POCs (except the allegedly-few Noble Defectors, like the veritable mountain of Drizzt clones) was not particularly good for the game either, and a better, more interesting space of stories can be told when this race is more complicated.

This hasn't been true since 3e and maybe 2e(can't remember when it started). There were populations of good drow, not just the rare defector.