D&D 5E D&D and who it's aimed at

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Not to pile on, but I dont think this is it.

I think its about not having a hint that the PLAYERS engage in or promote, or tolerate, that suffering. The only image Wizards pushes, is a hopeful, heroic, positive, one that the players will rise above, be great, win, and make friends with the villain's along the way.

Dude, if you're going to resort to hyperbole, can you at least be accurate about it? Literally the only adventure in all of 5e where you can "befriend" the main villain is Descent into Avernus. And that's literally for only one of the adventure's villains. You can't befriend Tiamat/Arkhan, you can't befriend the Demon Lords, and if you try to befriend Bel, he'll backstab you. Yes, you can redeem the main antagonist of Netherdeep, but he's not actually a villain, he's just a cursed victim accidentally hurting others. The adventure doesn't have a true villain.

But Icewind Dale? Nope. No way to redeem Auril or the main wizard villain. They both have to die. Witchlight? You can deal with the hags nonviolently, but not befriend them. But you can also just solve most of the Doman of Delight's problems just by murdering them. And Iggwilv, to be honest. Murdering her would probably be a good thing for Prismeer. Strixhaven? Nope. You have to kill the villain, or bring him back to face justice at the campus. If you don't, he kills literally everyone in Strixhaven, and you lose the adventure. A lot of Candlekeep's adventures are solved by just murdering the main antagonist/villain, too. And all of the Dark Lords of Ravenloft are explicitly irredeemable villains, and the only way to even temporarily make the Domains of Dread a better place is to murder the Dark Lords.

 

[Scribe]

Dude, if you're going to resort to hyperbole, can you at least be accurate about it? Literally the only adventure in all of 5e where you can "befriend" the main villain is Descent into Avernus. And that's literally for only one of the adventure's villains. You can't befriend Tiamat/Arkhan, you can't befriend the Demon Lords, and if you try to befriend Bel, he'll backstab you. Yes, you can redeem the main antagonist of Netherdeep, but he's not actually a villain, he's just a cursed victim accidentally hurting others. The adventure doesn't have a true villain.

But Icewind Dale? Nope. No way to redeem Auril or the main wizard villain. They both have to die. Witchlight? You can deal with the hags nonviolently, but not befriend them. But you can also just solve most of the Doman of Delight's problems just by murdering them. And Iggwilv, to be honest. Murdering her would probably be a good thing for Prismeer. Strixhaven? Nope. You have to kill the villain, or bring him back to face justice at the campus. If you don't, he kills literally everyone in Strixhaven, and you lose the adventure. A lot of Candlekeep's adventures are solved by just murdering the main antagonist/villain, too. And all of the Dark Lords of Ravenloft are explicitly irredeemable villains, and the only way to even temporarily make the Domains of Dread a better place is to murder the Dark Lords.

Isnt the most recent adventure resolvable via non-violence in the form of convincing the big bad to repent or some such?

Either way, its a play on the point being 'the friends we made along the way'. Apologies if it fell flat for you.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That's all depictions of human suffering in art.

Interesting, thank you for the specific examples.

And I do think it matters, yeah - art has always depicted suffering because it is uniquely good at conveying emotion and energy that way, and it does make it "real" if it's more than just text - but it seems like in adventures it does happen, just not sourcebooks.

 

[Mercurius]

Because human suffering is part of those genres, and WotC is afraid of depicting it.

Human suffering is a part of EVERY genre. I mean, look at Gollum! Poor squirmy dude.

I don't think it is the suffering they're shying away from (if they're shying away from them - or simply focusing on other things). Rather, I think they are emphasizing more recent sub-genres and flavors--including socio-cultural traits--that they believe appeal to their current demographic, most of whom weren't even born when Dark Sun came out, and their only exposure to Conan was a bad movie with Aquaman in it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Isnt the most recent adventure resolvable via non-violence in the form of convincing the big bad to repent or some such?

Not repent, you literally have to beat the evil out of him. Multiple times. You have to fight like 4 or 5 of his avatars before even getting the opportunity to redeem him (I don't remember off of the top of my head).

Either way, its a play on the point being 'the friends we made along the way'. Apologies if it fell flat for you.

No, it didn't fall flat. I'm saying that it's wrong. There are far more adventure recently that need to be resolved by violence than there are ones where you can redeem the villain/antagonist. There's literally only two redemption stories (Zariel and Alyxian, and they're optional to redeem), and a ton of villains that you need to murder/incapacitate (Auril, Murgaxor, most Candlekeep villains, etc).

 

[Scribe]

Not repent, you literally have to beat the evil out of him. Multiple times. You have to fight like 4 or 5 of his avatars before even getting the opportunity to redeem him (I don't remember off of the top of my head).

No, it didn't fall flat. I'm saying that it's wrong. There are far more adventure recently that need to be resolved by violence than there are ones where you can redeem the villain/antagonist. There's literally only two redemption stories (Zariel and Alyxian, and they're optional to redeem), and a ton of villains that you need to murder/incapacitate (Auril, Murgaxor, most Candlekeep villains, etc).

I stand corrected. I will await when I get to purchase a book full of half naked men and women swinging unbelievably large swords at villians.

 

[Medic]

Since we're somehow on the topic of Strahd now, I guess I'll mention that the original adventure featuring him was a semi-random "one-shot" type of deal, where he'd have a different goal every time that would cause the plot to play out completely differently. If defeated, he would revive in 1d10 decades (or something or the sort, I can't be bothered to go digging and pull it up at the moment).

If I had to guess at intent, it was basically an "every Halloween" type deal, where the group would roll a new batch of adventurers and have a go at beating Strahd, possibly with references to the fate of the group's previous characters. I mentioned that Wizards wanted 5th to be a "greatest hits" version of D&D, so perhaps this quirk was grandfathered in for... reasons?

No, it didn't fall flat. I'm saying that it's wrong. There are far more adventure recently that need to be resolved by violence than there are ones where you can redeem the villain/antagonist. There's literally only two redemption stories (Zariel and Alyxian, and they're optional to redeem), and a ton of villains that you need to murder/incapacitate (Auril, Murgaxor, most Candlekeep villains, etc).

Yes, it's wrong. "The friends we made along the way" and similar phrases are a joke poking fun at a common story cliché about how friendship is more valuable than treasure. It's just a gag that circulates around the internet now and again.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

unbelievably large swords

I don't know about the half-naked part, but this is could very easily come back. Anime seems very popular amongst much of the fanbase now, and unbelievably large swords are kind of a staple of a lot of popular anime.

 

[Scribe]

I don't know about the half-naked part, but this is could very easily come back. Anime seems very popular amongst much of the fanbase now, and unbelievably large swords are kind of a staple of a lot of popular anime.

Yeah, I can see it in a year or two considering the success of Elden Ring? Maybe.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Yes, it's wrong. "The friends we made along the way" and similar phrases are a joke poking fun at a common story cliché about how friendship is more valuable than treasure. It's just a gag that circulates around the internet now and again.

I know. I was objecting to applying it to newer adventures, due to the fact that it's dismissive and inaccurate. Like I said, solving problems by murder is still a very large part of a lot of recent D&D 5e adventures.