D&D (2024) D&D Background and Origin Feat Article

[UngeheuerLich]

And what if the DM says “no, you’ve never shopped here before, the shopkeepers don’t know you and have no reason to give you a discount”? Or even, “make a Charisma check to try to negotiate for the discounted price?” I think the player would be entirely justified in protesting. They have a feature that says they get a discount. Not that they get a discount if the DM feels like it, not that they get a discount in settlements where they’ve established themselves, not that they can make a Charisma check to get a discount. It just says they get it, full stop. And therein lies the problem. There’s no accounting for the circumstances of the purchase. The feature says you get a discount, players should be able to count on their features to do what they say they do, and DMs should be able to account for various in-world circumstances. With this rule, all three of those things can’t be preserved, one of them must be compromised.

My problem is that a player-facing ability shouldn’t be putting the DM in a position to have to do that. The player’s role is to describe what their character does and the DM’s role is to describe how the world responds to that. This feature encroaches on the DM’s ability to perform their role by saying whatever they describe must result in a 20% discount for the character of player who takes this feature.

Again. Which I totally understand.

I just give some context, why this ability is usally no problem. In 95% of the games.

A few weeks ago a lot of people defended the folk hero background. Where I said it had to go because of what you described. So now I explained why I think it is less problematic in my opinion, although I ALSO DON'T LIKE IT if it is really a discount on every purchase.

So please accept that I do agree with you, but that I don't agree with the anger RIGHT NOW before we get the exact RULES TEXT instead of a TRANSCRIPTION of this text.

 

[mellored]

I speak about he fast crafting table. Not the discount.

I haven't seen the table, so I'll withholding judgment.

If it stops at ropes and ladder, I won't be impressed when everyone can fly.

Hopefully it scales.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I haven't seen the table, so I'll withholding judgment.

Agreed.

If it stops at ropes and ladder, I won't be impressed when everyone can fly.

Only partially agreed. Not everyone flies in our groups. Actually nearly noone does. And if one does and can fix a ladder somewhere, win-win

Hopefully it scales.

O rather hope the benefits stay useful at every level.

 

[Charlaquin]

Again. Which I totally understand.

I just give some context, why this ability is usally no problem. In 95% of the games.

A few weeks ago a lot of people defended the folk hero background. Where I said it had to go because of what you described. So now I explained why I think it is less problematic in my opinion, although I ALSO DON'T LIKE IT if it is really a discount on every purchase.

So please accept that I do agree with you, but that I don't agree with the anger RIGHT NOW before we get the exact RULES TEXT instead of a TRANSCRIPTION of this text.

Understood and accepted. I too am reserving final judgement until I see the full text, I just don’t see anything currently to suggest it would have changed significantly from the UA version. And a lot of people are trying to tell me I’m wrong, that this feature is somehow no different than a bonus to ability checks, which is currently bothering me a great deal more than the actual feat in question is.

 

[mellored]

Purchasing an item is an action the PC takes in the world, but normally when you purchase an item, the vendor sets the price. What action does the PC take in the world that results in the price decreasing?

Haggling.

This is a medieval world where everything is hand made. Not Walmart where identical mass produced items have identical prices set before you walk in.

And even then, there are real world people who have coupon expertise.


Again, I think it would make more sense on a Merchant background (along with carrying capacity), but it's the same kind of bonus any other feat gets. Your good at something other people are not.

Getting the shovel is not what’s at issue. Getting to pay less for the shovel than anyone else would have to is the issue.

The whole point of a class bases system is that you can do things others can not.

Life clerics can heal for more than anyone else.
Barbarian take more hits than anyone else.
Etc...

 

[mellored]

HPs are an abstraction, though, while GPs are a thing that physically exists in the game world.

My character literally has 27 pieces of actual gold currency in their possession. They don't literally have "27 Hit Points."

Money is an abstraction.

If you where building a golden statue, the physical amount you have would matter. Sure. But that's not what's your using it for.

 

[Charlaquin]

Haggling.

This is a medieval world where everything is hand made. Not Walmart where identical mass produced items have identical prices set before you walk in.

And even then, there are real world people who have coupon expertise.

Then why don’t they have to actually declare an attempt to get the price reduced by haggling, and have that action actually pass through the game’s action resolution system, wherein the DM determines if there’s a possibility of success, a possibility of failure, meaningful stakes, and determine the difficulty? If it was a bonus to ability checks to haggle, I would be absolutely fine with that. But it’s not that, it’s an automatic discount in every situation no matter what that is never at risk of failure, and leaves me as DM in the position of having to figure out why that’s the case.

Again, I think it would make more sense on a Merchant background (along with carrying capacity),

I mean, yeah, that too, but that’s a much lesser concern for me.

but it's the same kind of bonus any other feat gets. Your good at something other people are not.

You’re not just better at haggling than other people though, you cannot possibly fail to haggle the price of anything down by 20% with anyone no matter what. This feature does not account for any possibility of anyone ever refusing to give you 20% off.

The whole point of a class bases system is that you can do things others can not.

Life clerics can heal for more than anyone else.
Barbarian take more hits than anyone else.
Etc...

But these are features that represent what your character is capable of, not features that dictate how other people respond to your character. This feature functionally says “no NPC can ever refuse to give you 20% off their initial asking price.” That’s backwards from how other PC features work.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Money is an abstraction.

If you where building a golden statue, the physical amount you have would matter. Sure. But that's not what's your using it for.

It doesn't matter what you're using it for. It's a physical thing in the world. You either have it or you don't. D&D isn't designed to use video game inventory.

 

[mellored]

I'm a simulationist. Good representation of the setting is always my number one priority. In this case my preference aligns with yours.

If you want to reduce the abstraction a bit. Change it to advantage on haggling checks or similar.

 

[SoulDoubt]

Money is an abstraction.

If you where building a golden statue, the physical amount you have would matter. Sure. But that's not what's your using it for.

Money is an abstraction, but coins are not. They physically exist. Abstracted money systems exist in other TTRPGs, like Purchase DCs in d20 Modern, but that's not how money works in D&D.