D&D 5E D&D Beyond Self-Censorship: Pride Month Digital Dice Blocked In Some Countries

[Umbran]

On another note, I'd recommend you delete the term that rhymes with curfew bingling as it has been used too much as a dogwhistle by bad faith actors and it's against forum policy IIRC.

Yep.

 

[Greg Benage]

Yep.

Not that you need my permission, but go ahead. I'd think the "corporate" adjective distinguishes it from its accustomed usage in dismissing the concerns of other posters, but I'm not a moderator.

 

[Flamestrike]

Your stance is petulant and ignorant.

How on earth am I being 'petulant or repugnant' to suggest someone direct angst at Turkey (a country that literally prejudices and persecutes LGBTI people) instead of WOTC (a company that is openly promoting LGBTI issues) here?

LGBT rights in Turkey - Wikipedia

If your company is found to have promoted LGBTI issues in a place like Hungary or Russia, it will see you fined (or worse) in those jurisdictions. That's a consequence of homo (and trans) phobia in those jurisdictions, so your anger should be directed at them.

Turkey has been literally using offences in its criminal code 'against the public morality' and 'against public exhibitionism' to shut down Pride marches and LGBTI organizations:

Human rights in Turkey - Wikipedia

WOTC on the other hand, are literally going out of their way to support those causes.

Pick your battles man. It wasnt that long ago that companies just stayed quiet. Here we have a company actively trying to promote LGBTI issues, and show solidarity, and they're the ones copping it, and not the country with the draconian LGBTI laws.

 

[LordEntrails]

But it is reasonable to hold corporate cultures accountable for ethical policies.

Yep, that's why I have repeatedly added the 'legal and ethical' nuance to my statements.

I still think @Ondath and @Ondath's friends ought to get some kind of accommodation/assistance from WotC on this, though: D&D fans should be encouraged in their fandom. What they're asking for in this case seems neither onerous nor dangerous.

I think they should seek that. But given as we really have little to go on we don't know what considerations WotC made when they made their decision. So we might believe in our perspective they made a bad decision, but WotC might have reasons to believe they have made a good decision. Hopefully @Ondath will get a response from WotC that will clarify.

I really don't want to shift to an angrier tone here, but what is it with you guys and defending a multi-billion dollar company for a bad decision that they could've very easily avoided by not doing anything?

Don't get angry if you don't want to.
And I don't see it so much as defending anyone, but rather pointing out that much of what is being argued about is under-informed.
And yes, they could have not done anything, but then their would be no pride dice anywhere in the world. If they chose to do nothing everytime them they would not have done all the other things they have done to support LBGTQ+ issues. You complaining that they have done the wrong thing, not that you want them to do nothing.

Your stance is petulant and ignorant. Especially in the face of everything that Ondath has said about their home country.

Who's stance? Or are you avoiding identifying who because then you might be in violation of forum rules about attacking individuals rather than discussing the topic?

 

[Ondath]

How on earth am I being 'petulant or repugnant' to suggest someone direct angst at Turkey (a country that literally prejudices and persecutes LGBTI people) instead of WOTC (a company that is openly promoting LGBTI issues) here?

LGBT rights in Turkey - Wikipedia

If your company is found to have promoted LGBTI issues in a place like Hungary or Russia, it will see you fined (or worse) in those jurisdictions. That's a consequence of homo (and trans) phobia in those jurisdictions, so your anger should be directed at them.

Turkey has been literally using offences in its criminal code 'against the public morality' and 'against public exhibitionism' to shut down Pride marches and LGBTI organizations:

Human rights in Turkey - Wikipedia

WOTC on the other hand, are literally going out of their way to support those causes.

Pick your battles man. It wasnt that long ago that companies just stayed quiet. Here we have a company actively trying to promote LGBTI issues, and show solidarity, and they're the ones copping it, and not the country with the draconian LGBTI laws.

Let me put things into perspective this way.

Netflix, a company actively targeted by anti-LGBT groups, operates in Turkey with no issues.

Riot games, the company publishing the biggest e-sports games in Turkey, makes its pride content available and Still gets flak from Turkish customers because we know they're being overly cautious.

I can buy Paizo's pride pins from their website without any issues. I can order a pride flag from Amazon Turkey with no +18 warnings in the way. There isn't the kind of suppression of LGBT content (legal or government-mandated) that would require WotC to act the way they did.

When someone from Turkey with close LGBT friends is saying that the situation is not as bad as you claim from abroad, and that all WotC had to do was just provide access to the same international website they do everywhere else, and when you take this strange tone to this simple request, it's not just petulant, it's racist condescension.

 

[Ondath]

You complaining that they have done the wrong thing, not that you want them to do nothing.

What I meant by doing nothing was not implementing the region lock in Turkey. This was an unnecessary step that they did not need to take, which is why I'm saying they made this worse by doing something. Them making special pride dice was not what I meant.

 

[Flamestrike]

Let me put things into perspective this way.

Netflix, a company actively targeted by anti-LGBT groups, operates in Turkey with no issues.

Let me put it to you this way.

Did WOTC restrict the content in Turkey:

1) Because they don't really support LGBTI issues, and it's all just an elaborate charade or
2) Because of Turkeys threatening to use (and using) 'public morality' laws to suppress and attack people and organizations promoting LGBTI issues in Turkey?

I'm a Lawyer IRL, and I likely would have advised WOTC to at least be careful promoting LGBTI issues in a game, that is marketed towards kids, in Turkey. It has the potential to do more harm than good, and might see the Government come after the Company, using those 'public morality' laws.

And that's presuming I was over the LGBTI rights in every legal jurisdiction on the Globe (and that's literally several thousand), and no lawyer is. In all honesty here, WOTC are probably just being legally cautious (and for reasons that are entirely the fault of Turkey).

I bet you London to a Brick, if your President and country were less homo and trans phobic, and those laws did not exist, WOTC be providing access to that content.

So again I ask you, who is to blame here? WOTC, or Turkey?

 

[Malmuria]

You'll notice that Turkey is not marked in any of those maps as particularly limited or dangerous for LGBT people. The cultural attitudes are no different than that of Poland, for instance, and I know my Polish friends could claim these dice without issue. I really don't want to shift to an angrier tone here, but what is it with you guys and defending a multi-billion dollar company for a bad decision that they could've very easily avoided by not doing anything?

You can’t honestly expect an American, even a lawyer for a large comapny, to know where Turkey is on a map. Turkey is “over there,” part of the “backward” countries that we don’t think about unless we need to bomb them. /s

 

[Echohawk]

Did WOTC restrict the content in Turkey:

1) Because they don't really support LGBTI issues, and it's all just an elaborate charade or
2) Because of Turkeys threatening to use (and using) 'public morality' laws to suppress and attack people and organizations promoting LGBTI issues in Turkey?

According to their own text, neither of these two. D&D Beyond claims to be blocking because "certain regions prohibit specific subject matter". Ondath has made it clear that this isn't true; Turkey does not, in fact, prohibit that subject matter.

Perhaps WotC's actual reason is "it isn't technically prohibited but our lawyer thinks it's too risky anyway". Depending on your point of view, that might be a valid reason or not. But even if you think that's a valid reason, it doesn't change the fact that the reason they are currently providing is not true. And that, by itself, deserves at least some questioning.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So again I ask you, who is to blame here? WOTC, or Turkey?

Yes.