D&D 5E D&D Beyond Self-Censorship: Pride Month Digital Dice Blocked In Some Countries

[Ondath]

For what it's worth, I think WotC would face just as much flack domestically, if not more, if people heard they changed it to a "colour festival" rather than self-censoring.

Riot did, admittedly, but I think serving your content under a different name to make it available is more preferable than not serving it at all. Also, LoL is bigger than D&D is in Turkey by several orders of magnitude, and they also have offices in Turkey that would be liable for the game, so they're probably being much more careful. D&D Beyond has no offices in Turkey, but doesn't allow its Turkish users to reach content on its American website, when it was extremely unlikely for simple rainbow-coloured dice offered in their American website to be noticed by any regulators.

 

[Ondath]

Also, while I'm mostly concerned with the situation in Turkey (what with it being where I live), I do think this kind of playing it safe in "backwards" countries in general is in itself incongruent with the values these companies claim they defend. I had earlier said that Netflix removes LGBT content in countries like Saudi Arabia, but even that isn't true! Netflix actually shows LGBT shows in Saudi Arabia, and though doing so required them to enact a "troubling compromise" by removing shows critical of the Saudi monarchy, this shows that companies can actively show support for the LGBT communities in countries where LGBT rights are nonexistent. To defend WotC's decision, which was an overly prudent one that they did not need to take given how unlikely it was to cause problem for them, seems weird to me.

 

[Burnside]

@Ondath , are you able to verify if they are self-censoring less front-and-center LGBTQ+ content as well? For instance, there are same-sex marriages and relationships, as well as some trans and non-binary characters, in Curse of Strahd, Wild Beyond the Witchlight, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, Strixhaven: Curriculum of Chaos, and other adventures - have those been self-censored (I guess you can only check if you own them)?

 

[Ondath]

@Ondath , are you able to verify if they are self-censoring less front-and-center LGBTQ+ content as well? For instance, there are same-sex marriages and relationships, as well as some trans and non-binary characters, in Curse of Strahd, Wild Beyond the Witchlight, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, Strixhaven: Curriculum of Chaos, and other adventures - have those been self-censored (I guess you can only check if you own them)?

I can reach that content without any issue on D&D Beyond. I can also buy these books from Amazon (who have TR offices) with no +18 warning (Amazon also doesn't have a +18 warning for any pride or LGBT-themed products). Since the announcement for the content restriction policy was made in tandem with the announcement for the virtual dice, I'd wager they decided to pre-emptively restrict these dice (and any future LGBT-related products) then in order to avoid further hassle.

I just checked to be extra sure, and I can definitely access the part Dragon Heist with the nonbinary NPC (in Chapter 2).

 

[TheSword]

Except, it is for me because I live in the country where they made this risk assesment. I know examples of other companies that took a similar "risk" and did not face any major consequences. While the 18+ warning for rainbow products e-commerce clause seems scary, D&D Beyond doesn't even have a proper marketplace for Turkey, we just use the same interface as the American one, and many other countries would just continue servicing the same thing they do worldwide in this situation. Here's Riot's "colour festival" announcement in Turkish where they are able to provide pride-themed emotes and cosmetic choices for free with no 18+ requirement for LoL. WotC decided to actively make the situation worse when they didn't need to.

Expressing resentment towards companies for what we think to be actions taken in bad regard is a pretty common practice. There are even papers in social ontology that use such cases to prove that collectives can be held responsible (Deborah Tollefsen has a whole book on it called Groups as Agents). To dismiss this by saying that my anger is displaced and that I should actually deal with the Other Actor (with whom I'm already dealing to the best of my political ability) feels condescending, because it actually shows that you'd rather explain away my anger instead of listening to the salient reasons I'm giving for my resentment.

Okay but while you may know the law of your land from the perspective of a citizen, you don’t know that from the perspective on an international online distributor.

How many times have WOC been berated for not being sensitive to other cultures. What, you only thought that only mattered when it was something you agreed with? WotC can sometimes be damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Doing nothing in those circumstances is not an unreasonable position.

The coloured dice don’t mean anything if they’re just color festival dice. If they’re not pride dice, they don’t represent standing up for yourself and being counted... You’re criticizing the company for making a token gesture (not truly representing pride in all countries) because they haven’t made a token gesture (releasing color festival dice).

Look I’m the first one to criticize WOC for releasing crappy product. I just don’t think it’s fair to accuse them of being regressive because they’re playing it safe in this regard.

Netflix by the way have substantially more negotiating power and content embedded in a TV program is less overt than an an express political statement like releasing something specifically in support of pride.

As I said. I understand why you’re pissed, I just don’t think it’s WotC’s fault.

 

[Ondath]

How many times have WOC been berated for not being sensitive to other cultures. What, you only thought that only mattered when it was something you agreed with? WotC can sometimes be damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Doing nothing in those circumstances is not an unreasonable position.

To conflate the kind of cultural sensitivity people demand from WotC when representing certain cultures (or fantasy races inspired by said cultures) with not opposing a parochial disregard of fundamental rights to a sexual and gender minority in a "backward" country is exactly the kind of racism that pisses me off. Nothing about disregarding the rights of LGBT people is "sensitivity to other cultures", on the contrary LGBT people live in these cultures and have done so for ages. LGBT people in Turkey are appalled when our government says "it is not in our culture to be LGBT", and it is no less appalling when the same idea is repeated by supposedly progressive people in Western countries. You're simply being insensitive.

To say WotC is "being sensitive" by defending the fundamental rights of oppressed groups in one country and not do so when regressive politicians rule another is exactly the kind of essentialist, "clash of cultures" kind of narrative that makes life worse for my LGBT friends and progressive people like me.

 

[TheSword]

To conflate the kind of cultural sensitivity people demand from WotC when representing certain cultures (or fantasy races inspired by said cultures) with not opposing a parochial disregard of fundamental rights to a sexual and gender minority in a "backward" country is exactly the kind of racism that pisses me off. Nothing about disregarding the rights of LGBT people is "sensitivity to other cultures", on the contrary LGBT people live in these cultures and have done so for ages. LGBT people in Turkey are appalled when our government says "it is not in our culture to be LGBT", and it is no less appalling when the same idea is repeated by supposedly progressive people in Western countries. You're simply being insensitive.

To say WotC is "being sensitive" by defending the fundamental rights of oppressed groups in one country and not do so when regressive politicians rule another is exactly the kind of essentialist, "clash of cultures" kind of narrative that makes life worse for my LGBT friends and progressive people like me.

I’m not saying I agree with the idea… I’m a gay man. I support Gay rights everywhere.

I’m saying I don’t blame WotC for not stepping in with size 12 boots in haste.

It is your fundamental right to freedom of expression and equality. It’s not your fundamental right to demand WotC campaign for you against the Turkish government. It’s just not a reasonable expectation.

 

[Oblivnow]

How many times have WOC been berated for not being sensitive to other cultures. What, you only thought that only mattered when it was something you agreed with? WotC can sometimes be damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Doing nothing in those circumstances is not an unreasonable position.

To me, this reads as, all at the same time, strangely dismissive of criticisms that have been made about cultural representations in the game, very condescending, and as @Ondath expressed, posits Turkey in an essentialist anti-queer place.

 

[TheSword]

To me, this reads as, all at the same time, strangely dismissive of criticisms that have been made about cultural representations in the game, very condescending, and as @Ondath expressed, posits Turkey in an essentialist anti-queer place.

I’m sorry if it seems condescending. I’m in the privileged position of living in a country with equality protection. So I am very lucky. I wish it were the case everywhere.

Until it is, I don’t blame companies for protecting themselves through being cautious in overtly political statements.

 

[Ondath]

I’m not saying I agree with the idea… I’m a gay man. I support Gay rights everywhere.

I’m saying I don’t blame WotC for not stepping in with size 12 boots in haste.

It is your fundamental right to freedom of expression and equality. It’s not your fundamental right to demand WotC campaign for you against the Turkish government. It’s just not a reasonable expectation.

I think reasonable people can disagree about things, so I understand if what I demand does seem excessive. But demanding that companies do better is a pretty fundamental aspect of activism in our current societies, and I'm hoping that WotC can change their stance if they see that they were overly cautious in their planning. Whether they listen to that or not is absolutely up to WotC, but it will obviously change the ways in which I engage with them as well.

 

[Echohawk]

It’s not your fundamental right to demand WotC campaign for you against the Turkish government. It’s just not a reasonable expectation.

I don't see anyone demanding that. All I've seen is a request for WotC not to block content and then provide as the reason that it is "regionally prohibited" when it is not, in fact, prohibited in the region in which it is blocked.

 

[TheSword]

I don't see anyone demanding that. All I've seen is a request for WotC not to block content and then provide as the reason that it is "regionally prohibited" when it is not, in fact, prohibited in the region in which it is blocked.

The request for a set of pride dice in turkey is a request for an overt political statement. In a country when overt political statements in that regard are repressed.

You’re not a lawyer, neither am I so taking legal positions is above both our pay grades.

 

[Ondath]

You’re not a lawyer, neither am I so taking legal positions is above both our pay grades.

To bring some levity to the thread, we've been talking so much about pride that I read this sentence initially as "taking legal positions is above both our gay prides".

 

[Burnside]

I think it's quite reasonable for Ondath to request further details from WotC about exactly why this move was made by WotC in his country. However, I personally will reserve judgement because I do think it is possible that Hasbro/WotC legal has info on this issue that Ondath doesn't, which informed their decision. It may very well be a case of overly-aggressive geo-blocking, but it also may be informed by past legal misadventures that Hasbro is aware of with regard to Turkish law, either through their own experience or that of industry peers.

 

[Oblivnow]

The request for a set of pride dice in turkey is a request for an overt political statement. In a country when overt political statements in that regard are repressed.

I mean, we have an LGBT person living in Turkey in this thread who has repeatedly said, in very clear terms, that that is an inaccurate characterization of the state of LGBT media in Turkey.
Do you think it is inappropriate for @Ondath to want clarification from WotC? So far, all they have stated is that the dice aren't available, that they know of no laws that would prevent it, and provided some other information to clarify the exact issue they is having, if there has been a grand demand that WotC "campaign for you against the Turkish government", then I seem to have missed it.

 

[Ondath]

I mean, we have an LGBT person living in Turkey in this thread who has repeatedly said, in very clear terms, that that is an inaccurate characterization of the state of LGBT media in Turkey.
Do you think it is inappropriate for @Ondath to want clarification from WotC? So far, all they have stated is that the dice aren't available, that they know of no laws that would prevent it, and provided some other information to clarify the exact issue they is having.

To clarify, I myself am not LGBT but I do have an LGBT partner and a lot of close friends who are LGBT, which is why the matter is close to my heart. I avoid speaking in place of actual LGBT people as much as possible, but in this case I felt the need to post the thread since I don't know of any other Turkish people here. I defer to other LGBT people when it comes to matters of strategy and whatnot, but most LGBT friends in Turkey I shared the news with shared my opinion.

 

[Burnside]

Wizards states that "Certain regions prohibit specific subject matter, and in some cases, access to content that includes regionally prohibited subject matter can put members of our community at risk of harm. For that reason, we must at times make certain content unavailable in these impacted locations."

This feels like a very fraught statement with a lot to unpack. I don't know that there are easy answers. I think "we're censoring our content to protect members of our community from risk" is probably true in some cases, but a convenient cop-out in others.

I also think the question of when, and when not, to do business in a place whose values oppose your own is also not an easy one. There is a valid argument that the moral compromise is cynical and fails to exert economic pressure where it might help. There's also an argument that even partial ambassadorship of values can help, and that getting some content through is better than none at all (for example, as Ondath notes, while the front-and-center Pride dice are blocked, the LGBTQI+ content in the adventures isn't - and that content might be really important/helpful for some people to see.)

 

[Oblivnow]

To clarify, I myself am not LGBT but I do have an LGBT partner and a lot of close friends who are LGBT, which is why the matter is close to my heart. I avoid speaking in place of actual LGBT people as much as possible, but in this case I felt the need to post the thread since I don't know of any other Turkish people here. I defer to other LGBT people when it comes to matters of strategy and whatnot, but most LGBT friends in Turkey I shared the news with shared my opinion.

Thanks for clarifying. To be quite honest, I remain unused to straight people taking initiative on even minor LGBT issues, so I think I scanned one of your early posts and assumed. My apologies and I appreciate what you are doing. I'm very glad that WotC is providing its content that is LGBT affirming internationally, just wish that they were more consistent. We can't expect moral consistency from any company, but we can certainly try to encourage them to be better, especially if the decisions may have been based on not understanding the actual legal situation.

 

[DEFCON 1]

For those who were suggesting that any corporation's efforts to promote Pride Month is purely self-serving, cynical and economic in nature (and thus perhaps insinuating that they shouldn't even bother because they are merely trying to fool us into thinking they care)... I personally would disagree. Even if having Pride-themed materials and color changes are at a baseline marketing efforts only-- by displaying them they are normalizing Pride Month and Pride in general as a thing. That normalization might not move the needle that much right now as a society... but as our subsequent generations grow up under that normalization of Pride and the acceptance of the LGBTQ+ community, things will open up even further. Our children and grandchildren will live in a much different world of acceptance that I did as a child and teen, and that is only a good thing.

Any good we try to do right now that seems "pointless" in the short-term (because it won't seem to change anything right now), can eventually pay off dividends down the line. Heck, the Equal Rights Amendment in the United States passed 50 years ago... and I think if we were to compare the rights and standing of women between 1972 and today, the passing of the ERA did a whole lot of good. It still ain't perfect by any stretch of course... but all us men and women who have grown up with the ERA as a thing have helped shift the narrative and our society for the better. Just like those who will grow up under the banner of Pride will do so in the decades to come.

 

[Ondath]

Thanks for clarifying. To be quite honest, I remain unused to straight people taking initiative on even minor LGBT issues, so I think I scanned one of your early posts and assumed. My apologies and I appreciate what you are doing. I'm very glad that WotC is providing its content that is LGBT affirming internationally, just wish that they were more consistent. We can't expect moral consistency from any company, but we can certainly try to encourage them to be better, especially if the decisions may have been based on not understanding the actual legal situation.

No worries! I just wanted to avoid any wrong impressions that I'm part of the group when I'm not. The last thing needed is someone to misrepresent the community I think.