D&D Blog - Kings and Castles

I'm hoping for a return of this part of D&D as well. Wizard towers, constructing temples, calculating how much loot do I want to spend on this castle, collecting taxes from the peasants, feudal responsibilities, key NPC followers and better flunkies, I'd like it all back.
 

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Current numbers on those polls pretty much represent how I feel on the subject. Keeps and minions should be optional content and shouldn't define high-level play. When they do exist they should be a means to furthering the party-centric adventures within the campaign. Provide them with resources, assistants, minions, a place to sleep, a target for the villains, ect... But total war with those resources should largely be either kept to specific modules for that, or as the concluding epic battle to an adventure.
 

Do want. My favorite literary heroes are warrior kings, or people on their way: Gilgamesh, Arthur, Conan, Aragorn, Beowulf, Rand al'Thor, etc. I love the idea of playing a character destined (or at least believing his destined) for greatness. For me this is part of the allure of 1st edition followers, and the reason why I always took the Leadership feat in 3rd Edition. Something more formalized on the "rulership" front would be nice, even if extraordinarily hard.

I like the previous comments about how it doesn't need to be castles and men-at-arms. It could just as easily be a thieves' or assassins' guild. Or a monastic order. Or a town. Or a trading caravan. Tons of possibilities.
 

I want this A LOT. The mention of keeps and whatnot was one of the things that most piqued my interest from the DDXP seminars. But yeah, obviously it shouldn't be a required or built-in part of any class's leveling curve. Plainly the right and ability to rule aren't restricted to any particular set of training.

In fact, the whole keep 'n' minions thing doesn't really make sense as a PC power to me. It makes more sense as a decision made by the entire party-- let's build a castle/convert this dungeon/steal that tower-- that defines how the campaign works for the next 10 levels or whatever. I feel like if one player took Awesome Castle as his level 12 feat and the rest of the party just wanted to keep dungeoncrawling, you'd end up with a real problem at the table. It probably needs to be a party decision. For example, in my 4e pirate sandbox campaign, the party is generally agreed that their long-term goal is buying a floating castle and sailing it around wreaking havoc on ships.

EDIT: Full disclosure: if I were a player in a 5e game, getting a keep and minions would be EXACTLY how I'd want to level up. Keeping track of horseshoes is my kind of fun. I'm a very organized person and I love having stuff to do with my character between game sessions.
 

I think that higher level campaigns should all be customizable to the point that I'm not sure I even want the core/basic game to go past 10th level or so. After that, the DM and players should pick an option. I see three basic options:

  • Status Quo: Nothing much changes. You are still just adventurers, fighting bigger monsters with mildly better options for advancement. (Probably the best default, if they must have one.)
  • Aristocracy Beckons: Flunkies, payrolls, rebellions, deciding lawsuits, and castle-building contractors. Perhaps enhanced diplomacy and mass combat or war rules. Certainly hope we can simplify the accouting somehow...
  • Wuxia Superheroes: When you knock on a heaven's door, its to file a complaint...with extreme prejudice. Advancement options are much more powerful than other paths. Heck, maybe you even ascend to demigodhood at the end.
I don't see anything inherently wrong or right about any of those options (despite my lighthearted descriptions for them.) They all have decent precedent both in D&D history and in the related genre media. I think all three options can cause a little static if you try to reconcile them....so don't bother. Just write a different high-level set of rules for each.
 

I'm torn. I agree that higher-level campaigns probably tend toward one of those three styles (and this should be a party decision, as I opined above), but just the same I wouldn't want to preclude the possibility of high-level play that's a bit of all three. Actually, my guess is that most high-level play would be a mix rather than just one style. What's to stop a guy from owning a castle AND punching a god? Like say if he stole a castle from an Evil Overlord and used it as the capital of his kingdom, while at the same time clearing the remnants of the EO's weird experiments out of the basement dungeons, and occasionally teleporting the whole castle to the Plane of Chaos and dropping it on demons?

That being said, perhaps it's worthwhile to offer multiple power curves for higher-level play; have a module that's akin to the E6/E8 style for those who just wanna keep crawlin' them dungeons.
 

I'm torn. I agree that higher-level campaigns probably tend toward one of those three styles (and this should be a party decision, as I opined above), but just the same I wouldn't want to preclude the possibility of high-level play that's a bit of all three. Actually, my guess is that most high-level play would be a mix rather than just one style. What's to stop a guy from owning a castle AND punching a god? Like say if he stole a castle from an Evil Overlord and used it as the capital of his kingdom, while at the same time clearing the remnants of the EO's weird experiments out of the basement dungeons, and occasionally teleporting the whole castle to the Plane of Chaos and dropping it on demons?

That being said, perhaps it's worthwhile to offer multiple power curves for higher-level play; have a module that's akin to the E6/E8 style for those who just wanna keep crawlin' them dungeons.

If a particular group has a mixed game in mind, they should go for it. Certainly the Aristocratic option and either of the other two work. However, I would want the options presented separately for the sake of less-experienced groups and general clarity. Mixing them up might also present a problem by making some options drastically suboptimal. Even worse, if one player takes all the Wuxia Supers options, he'll be awfully bored while the others are working up what they want as the latest edition to their various Castles, Towers, and Lairs. I also wouldn't want to pick one and declare it "default".
 
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Keeps and minions should be optional content and shouldn't define high-level play. When they do exist they should be a means to furthering the party-centric adventures within the campaign. Provide them with resources, assistants, minions, a place to sleep, a target for the villains, ect... But total war with those resources should largely be either kept to specific modules for that, or as the concluding epic battle to an adventure.
This is pretty much how I feel also.

One of the ways that higher levels change things in D&D is that the scope changes, and one of the mechanical ways to reinforce that is to get a stronghold and attract followers, but it's important, I think, to be able to "turn off" that scope change for groups that aren't interested.
It's also important for the game to support that scope change without needing to engage a new mechanical subsystem.

The old system of maintaining strongholds and carving out your niche in the world did a lot to fuel adventures. You are given a plot of land to clear. there are elves goblins dwarves and a slew of other things hidden in that 25 mile hex. I had players go for weeks trying to convince the local dwarves that they were now the vassals of this particular lord because the rightful government gave the land to him. of course the dwarves disagreed and things got dicy from there.
This is good stuff. In my samurai game I mentioned upthread, the PC samurai were awarded a village as their domain after they cleared it of ninjas and demon spiders.

But this sort of game can be run without needing AD&D-style mechanics for attracting followers etc. You don't need a mechanical system in order for a PC to be appointed a ruler by the "rightful" government and thereby get into tricky negotiation with the dwarves (or ninjas).

What role is the domain going to play in action resolution? Until we know that, we don't know if/how it has to be statted out. Is is a source of income? Well then the mechanics for it need to fit sensibly with the rest of the income earning/treasure gaining mechanics of the game.

Until we know what role these things are meant to play in the game, mechanics can't be sensibly worked out.
 

I think styles that introduce large changes to campaigns like domain-building need to be optional, but to do them well the structure for using them in a campaign should be baked-in. Shortly after 5e was announced I suggested in similar threads that "campaign themes" analogous to character themes might be baked into the basic system. That way there is some consistency of structure for the strategic elements of (say) god-killing, domain-building, or purely-mercenary campaigns and their interaction with the party. This would also be a perfect way to handle things like adventure paths or specific game settings with some specialized rules.

Obviously such things can be added to a campaign without this additional structure, but I think the results wouldn't be as clean. For example, in a game that focuses heavily on domain-building the in-game responsibilities and authority of individual PCs could differ quite a bit, so there is an advantage to defining a broad spectrum of character abilities that one could take (kingly authority to call loyal knights, a spymaster's access to intelligence, the high priest's influence over the local church and its laity, and the unique abilities of the king's trusted bodyguard) that interact with resources introduced by the campaign theme (the order of knights, a spy network, the church treasury and prayers of the faithful, and humbler figures in the court that lack formal influence but are rich in privileged knowledge). Having a structured way to hitch player abilities with these strategic resources introduced by the theme means one can more easily prevent system bloat or unbalancing the party, which happens more readily if all these elements are layered on top independently.

As another example, consider a campaign ending in the rise or fall of a pantheon. Here the campaign resources might be something like the favor of the gods themselves. Sometimes this affects the party in a more strategic fashion (say the creation of a demiplane from which they coordinate against opposing forces) as well as smaller boons that can be taken instead of those from normal themes (say calling forth in battle the divine-fragment that preserves and sustains the demiplane).

Finally, one might even have a system for "leveling up" the campaign so that the strategic elements closely reflect what the PCs actually do and have, and not necessarily what they "should" have based on the theme. Lots of campaigns don't have a single pursuit from beginning to end, but evolve organically. An example might be a campaign that starts with the party as duplicitous members of a thieves' guild who eventually insinuate themselves into the official power structure of the land. In that campaign much of the actual power of the PCs might come not from their ties to the nobility (as in a more typical kingdom-building game) but from their ties to the shadowy underworld. They might seek to use those resources to impoverish the nobility, in fact, while keeping the appearance that their own hands are clean. Completely unrelated systems for running the thieves' guild and kingdom-building might not introduce conflict between the two elements, but without some shared language they probably can't complement each other very well either.
 


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