D&D comes to Middle Earth (from Cubicle 7)

I have high hopes that the 5E OGL will really start to open up the game...and this would seem to qualify! Very excited for this.

 

[SilentWolf]

Since I think a succesful book needs new classes anyway, I consider this good news rather than bad.

What I mean is: the more they build upon the existing PHB framework, the more like regular D&D the results will be.

And the more like regular D&D the results are, the less successful the book will be in attaining the feel of LOTR.

Yes, they need almost certainly design new Classes, as well as they probably need to design new sub-systems or introduce new Variants.
Based on what I've learned, though, they can't design new rules using the ones not covered in the 5e SRD. For example, they cannot design a Class that uses Maneuvers and Superiority Dice, or they cannot design a PC Option that allows a Charachter to cure the DMG Madness. Unless they find a way to bypass the license limits.

 

[Reynard]

Yes, they need almost certainly design new Classes, as well as they probably need to design new sub-systems or introduce new Variants.
Based on what I've learned, though, they can't design new rules using the ones not covered in the 5e SRD. For example, they cannot design a Class that uses Maneuvers and Superiority Dice, or they cannot design a PC Option that allows a Charachter to cure the DMG Madness. Unless they find a way to bypass the license limits.

That is not true at all. What the OGL does is open text in the SRD for re-use. Anything in the SRD can be copied verbatim in another book, as well as anything else released under the OGL. Wizards does not own a trademark on maneuvers and superiority dice, they merely own the copyright on that portion of the text in the PHB (along with everything else not released under the OGL). You can certainly include a battle master NPC with a full statblock in an adventure or supplement, you just can't cut and past the descriptions of that character's abilities from the PHB.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes, they need almost certainly design new Classes, as well as they probably need to design new sub-systems or introduce new Variants.
Based on what I've learned, though, they can't design new rules using the ones not covered in the 5e SRD. For example, they cannot design a Class that uses Maneuvers and Superiority Dice, or they cannot design a PC Option that allows a Charachter to cure the DMG Madness. Unless they find a way to bypass the license limits.

Sure, but my point is that you need existing mechanics much less when you aim for something different than when you just want to add to the existing game.

I realize the Battlemaster would probably fit Dragon Lord of the Dungeons, but remember: the only thing you can't do in your game is modify that class. Nothing stops us from generating Battlemasters for the new game, after all.

 

[SilentWolf]

That is not true at all. What the OGL does is open text in the SRD for re-use. Anything in the SRD can be copied verbatim in another book, as well as anything else released under the OGL. Wizards does not own a trademark on maneuvers and superiority dice, they merely own the copyright on that portion of the text in the PHB (along with everything else not released under the OGL). You can certainly include a battle master NPC with a full statblock in an adventure or supplement, you just can't cut and past the descriptions of that character's abilities from the PHB.

Essentially you're saying that, as long as Third Parties don't copy the exact words of the D&D books, they can use all the D&D 5e rules (regardless this rules are not covered in the SRD).
If it's true, it's something I didn't know. Interesting.
Thank you for the explanation.

So, for example, Cubicle 7 can design a Class with maneuvers and Superiority Dice, as long as they don't use the exact words written in the PHB.
Is that correct?

 

[Gadget]

Yes, under this particular OGL. It's the exact same OGL.



The OGL is designed to tweak the game rules. There is no part of the OGL which says you can't tweak the game rules. Mutants & Masterminds used the OGL to 'tweak' the 3.5 game rules; result: totally different game. Heck, Fate uses the OGL; the license doesn't even mention game rules. If your worry is about them not being able to make new game rules or tweak existing ones, don't worry. That's exactly the primary purpose of the OGL.

The difference is that there is much less of the system that is OGL. The SRD, as I understand it, is limited to about what is in the free basic rules, unlike what was in the SRD for 3.0/3.5. So all the options, sub-classes, optional systems in the DMG, etc., are not open. Now, one may say that most of that stuff is not going to be helpful in a Middle-earth D&D, and fair enough. But I still think it would be somewhat helpful. I'm not a lawyer, so it might be possible to use these rules even though they are not open, I'm thinking of early 5.0 OGL stuff that had the awkward 'tactical advantage' instead of 'advantage' here. That was the basis of my concern, and, if it my concern proves to be, well, baseless, then so much the better.

 

[Zaukrie]

This thread had already spin into the, there is a RIGHT way discussion. If I do pick this up, will have to pay close attention to who I play with. I find pedantic arguments over make believe worlds really annoying.

 

[Morrus]

The difference is that there is much less of the system that is OGL. The SRD, as I understand it, is limited to about what is in the free basic rules, unlike what was in the SRD for 3.0/3.5. So all the options, sub-classes, optional systems in the DMG, etc., are not open. Now, one may say that most of that stuff is not going to be helpful in a Middle-earth D&D, and fair enough. But I still think it would be somewhat helpful. I'm not a lawyer, so it might be possible to use these rules even though they are not open, I'm thinking of early 5.0 OGL stuff that had the awkward 'tactical advantage' instead of 'advantage' here. That was the basis of my concern, and, if it my concern proves to be, well, baseless, then so much the better.

Not that I imagine C7 is looking here for legal advice, but it's the exact text which is made OGL not the underlying system. That tactical advantage example was overly cautious.

 

[Lord Zack]

I prefer that C7 pack the book full, covering all the canonical peoples who exist in the late Third Age. Don't drag it out over a bunch of sourcebooks. Use the sourcebooks to detail new peoples, places, and details in the West-lands, in Rhun, Harad, and beyond. And even though C7 can't refer to any name which isn't found in The Hobbit or LotR, I prefer that all these peoples be included somehow - even if it's done by circumlocutions (like how Decipher referred to the seven houses of the Dwarves by another name, since the actual name is only found in The History of Middle-earth.)

Here is an updated list of all the canonical peoples who are known or supposed to exist in the late Third Age, along with some close extrapolations of canon (such as melding the various bits of info we have about the Avarin). Many people confuse and mix in peoples invented by Iron Crown Enterprises for MERP. But my list is straight from JRRT's books--though with some artistic and ethnological coherence applied. If I missed any let me know. If you want quotes for proof, let me know, and I'll post the quotes.

Peoples:

Hobbits:
• Shire-hobbit [=1897-era Warwickshire geographically, but culturally all counties of England; for example, Yorkshire in the Hills of Scary, the West Midlands and Welsh Marches in the East Farthing and the Marish, and Warwickshire (specifically) around Hobbiton.] By the late Third Age, the three hobbit breeds of Harfoot, Stoor, and Fallohide are hardly more distinct than Angles, Saxons, and Jutes in 1897-era England.
• Buckland-hobbit [=1897-era Monmouthshire, Wales]
• Bree-hobbit [=1897-era Buckinghamshire, the location of the real world "Brill/Bree-hill" and "Coombe"]
• Outsider-hobbit from the West of the World [=Remnants of other counties of 1897-era England]
• Wild-hobbit of the River Gladden [=900-era West Saxons]

Elves:
• High Elf (Noldo) from Lindon, from Rivendell, from Lorien, or in Aman
• Grey Elf (Sinda) from Lindon, from Rivendell, from Lorien, from the Woodland Realm, or in Aman (and after the War of the Ring: Ithilien)
• Wood Elf (Nando Silvan Elf) from Lorien, from the Woodland Realm, from the Wandering Companies of Eriador, or in Aman (and after the War of the Ring: Ithilien). These are the native elves of Eriador and of Rhovanion (along with the Penni Avari). The Wood Elves of Dol Amroth sailed to Aman. The language (to the extent it survives) is, or was, Leikvian (East-Danian), an Old Norse-flavored Elvish. In one place JRRT says the language is no longer spoken, but in another place he says that it is the main language of Thranduil's Realm. So for diversity's sake, it might as well still exist in the Woodland Realm.
• Sea Elf (Teleri/Falmari) from Alqualonde, or from Tol Eressëa
• Fair Elf (Vanya) of the Blessed Realm
• Green Elf of Lindon. (Cwenda Nando). Possibly merged with the Grey-elves of Lindon by the late Third Age. Or possibly not. Either way, there are families of that ancestry. (The Cwenda/West-Danian/Ossiriandic/Ossiriandeb) language is Old English-style Quendian.)
• Red Elf of the North Pole. Though depicted in the Father Christmas Letters, they are perhaps are already there in the late Third Age. They will not have "diminished" in size yet.
• Penni (Avari Silvan Elf) from Lorien, or from the Woodland Realm. The Penni and Nando are both called "Silvan/Wood Elves", and they are possibly, though not necessarily, merged by the late Third Age. They are the native elves of Rhovanion/Wilderland, along with the Nandor. (The Penni language is Gaulish-style Quendian.)
• Hill Elf (Cuind) of the West of East? (The language is Old Irish-style Quendian. I equate them with the "Hill-elves" mentioned in The Hobbit because the Hill-men of Dunland are likewise the Old Irish-flavored Men. Though these Hill Elves would presumably live in some hills in Rhun--perhaps in the hills depicted by JRRT to the north of the Sea of Rhun.)
• Twilight Elf (Hwenti/Hisildi) of the Midmost Regions (Palisor) (Hwenti = Gothic-style Quendian; the Hisildi of Palisor are the ones who first spoke to Ermon and Elmir, thereby imparting the quasi-Germanic phonaesthetic flavor to the first Mannish language.)
• Windan of the the North of East? (Old English?-style Quendian)
• Kindi of the South of East? (Hindi-style Quendian)
• Kinn-lai of the East of East? (Chinese-style Quendian)
(The Hobbit mentions "mountain-elves" -- they would be equated to one of these Avari peoples.)

Dwarves:
• Longbeard Dwarf of the Blue Mountains, of the Grey Mountains, of the Iron Hills, or of the Lonely Mountain (after the War of the Ring: of Dwarrrowdelf, or of the Glittering Caverns)
• Firebeard Dwarf of the Blue Mountains (or other Dwarf-holds of the West)
• Broadbeam Dwarf of the Blue Mountains (or other Dwarf-holds of the West)
• Ironfist Dwarf of the East
• Stiffbeard Dwarf of the East
• Blacklock Dwarf of the East
• Stonefoot Dwarf of the East
(The Hobbit mentions "Wicked Dwarves of the East"; so at least one of these houses is under the shadow. The Petty-dwarves of Beleriand are presumed extinct.)

Mannish cultures are reminiscent of 900-AD, except for those of Eriador (minus the Dunedain), which are 1897-era.
• Dunadan of the North [=remnants of the Arthurian, Carolingian, and Holy Roman realms]
• Bree-man [=1897-era Buckinghamshire]
• Man of the Hunter-folk of Eryn Vorn [=1897-era Cornishmen, speak Westron by late Third Age]
• Man of the Forsaken Inn [=remnant of 1897-era Hertfordshire]
• Beorning of the Upper Vales [=Bernicians of Northumbria]
• Horse-lord of Rohan [=Mercians]
• Lake-man of Esgaroth [=Geats of Lake Vättern]
• Dale-man [=Svear of Dalecarlia]
• Northman from West of Dale, or from South of Dale [=Norwegians or Danes]
• Woodman of Western Mirkwood, of the Middle Vales, or of the Lower Vales [Western Mirkwood=Germans: Old Saxons in the northern town, Old Franconians in the southern town; Middle Vales =Mercian remnants + newly arrived Saxons and Franks; Lower Vales = Westron-speaking Franks of West Francia]
• Man of Dorwinion [=Georgians, the land of wine and youth]
• Man of Gondor [=Byzantines]. The difference between High Men and other Gondorians is, by the late Third Age, of only slight distinction.
• Snowman of Forochel [=Skridfinns/Saami]
• Man of the Fisher-folk of Western Enedwaith [=Cruithne of Ireland]
• Wose of Druadan Forest [=Picts of Thrace/Agathrysi]
• Pukel-man of Druwaith Iaur [=Picts of France/Aquitani]
• Dunlending [=Old Irish]
• Man of Nurn [=Armenian]
• Corsair of Umbar, or from the Havens of Harad [=Ottomon Arabs of Tripoli and the other Barbary Coast kingdoms+900-era Saracen Arab-Berber coastal realms]
• Variag from Khand, or from the Wide East [=Varangian Northman from Khazaria, or from Rus]
• Man of Khand [=Khazar]
• Black Numenorean from Umbar, from Near Harad, or from Far Harad [=Copt]
• Vinith of Eastern Mirkwood, of Southern Mirkwood, of the Bight, or of Northern Rhovanion [=Western Slav: Wend/Polabian/Lusatian, Slovene, Czech/Moravian, or Pole]
• Near Southron [=Arab/Saracen]
• Easterling from the Horse Plain, or from the Kine Plain [=Hungarian/Magyar or Cuman]
• Far Southron (Troll-man, Silharrow, Elephant-lord, or Sun-dweller) [=Fur, Ethiopian, Ghanaian, or Kongo]
• Man of Angmar (Kern, Gallowglass, Redshank, Hillman, or Reiver) [=Scots: Highland Gael, Norn, Pict, Cumbrian, or Lowland Scot. The Hillmen of Rhudaur (=Cumbrians of Rheged) wered totally destroyed, but there would still be akin Hillmen in southwestern Angmar proper, equivalent to the Cumbrians of Strathclyde.]
• Man of the Balchoth of Southern Rhovanion [=Bulgars]
• Axe-Easterling from the Wide East [=Rus]
• Worm-Easterling from the East of East [=Chinese] In a draft of The Hobbit, JRRT referred to Were-worms from China! The Men who live among the Were-worms would be "Worm-men" or "Worm-Easterlings."
• Man of “Greenland” [=Inuit] (yes, “Greenland” itself is visited by Earendil in a draft in the Book of Lost Tales.)
• Man of the “Hindu Kush” or South of East [=Asian Indian] (In a draft of the Hobbit, the Hindu Kush mountains are mentioned]
• Man of the New Lands (Wild Islands, Lands of the Sun, the Burnt Lands, Easternesse) [=Indigenous Americans]
• Pygmy of the Great Forest of the South [=Twa]
• Man of the Dark Land (Southland) [=Australian Aborigines, Melanesians, and other peoples of "Lemuria."]

Every kind of Man (including the notorious Black Numenoreans) should be a playable PC option, even in an "all-good" company."The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" attests to there being good men throughout Rhun and Harad, for Aragorn "went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good..."

Other kindreds with role-playing potential, such as awakened Kelvar and Olvar and fays:

• Ent of Fangorn
• Ent-wife of the East
• Tree-man of Far Harad
• Stone-giant
• Animals which are portrayed as speaking or understanding speech: Giant Eagle, Raven, Crow, Thrush, Horse/Pony, Cattle, Dog, Cat, Wolf, Badger, Fox, Polar Bear
• Fays/Spirits/Sprites: Fire-fay, Sylph (Mánir "spirits of the air" and Súruli "spirits of the winds), Oarni "spirits of the sea"/"mermaid"), Falmaríni "spirits of the sea-foam", River Spirit (River-woman, River-daughter), Flower Fay, Brownie, Pixie, Leprawn, Nermir "fays of the meadows"; Tavari/Dryad "sprites of trees and woods", Nandini "fays of the valleys", Orossi "fays of the mountains"

It seems like you might be including some elements from the Book of Lost Tales. The Book of Lost Tales is not set in Middle Earth. It's meant to be a mythology for England. While Middle-Earth shares some elements with that earlier effort they are not the same thing.

Of course there really is no such thing as canon when it comes to Middle Earth. The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion are not truly consistent with each other. The Silmariillion especially is specifically called out by Christopher Tolkien as being not consistent with his father's works. The Silmarillion consists of Tolkien's writings, at least in part, but was not something JRR Tolkien ever intended to put out, at least not in it's current form. This puts things better than I could.

As for what this means for Cubicle 7, well no doubt they have already made their own decisions on how to convert the works of Tolkien to rpg form, since they have already done so. But to create an rpg that is consistent with Tolkien's vision would require to input of the man himself. So I wouldn't work too much about 5e not being a good fit for Middle Earth.

 

[Lord Zack]

Double post.

 

[Ancalagon]

By the way, for those unacquainted with The One Ring, here is a lovely introduction, showing off much Jon Hodgson's wonderful art: https://slate.adobe.com/cp/ENNV5/

That is some rather impressive art!