D&D comes to Middle Earth (from Cubicle 7)

I have high hopes that the 5E OGL will really start to open up the game...and this would seem to qualify! Very excited for this.

 

[Ancalagon]

double post :/ - it *has* been happening more often.

 

[mach1.9pants]

double post :/ - it *has* been happening more often.

Yeah, yeah you're just trying to upsize your post count!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

This is awesome.

That is all ... move along.

 

[Polyhedral_Columbia]

As for what this means for Cubicle 7, well no doubt they have already made their own decisions on how to convert the works of Tolkien to rpg form, since they have already done so.

I am a patron of Cubicle 7, and am totally free to voice my preferences on this open forum. I'd rather not be just a passive consumer who assumes the product line is chiseled in stone.

But to create an rpg that is consistent with Tolkien's vision would require to input of the man himself.

Well then let's just give up. Burn the hundreds of post-Tolkien Middle-earth RPG books. Encase JRRT's writings in bronze. And delete this thread.

So I wouldn't work too much about 5e not being a good fit for Middle Earth.

None of my posts here have even mentioned the issue of whether 5e is a good fit for Middle-earth. Don’t worky, I'm sure C7 will do a fine job.

Of course there really is no such thing as canon when it comes to Middle Earth.

I dislike the word "canon" as much as you do. Yet I want to make clear that my list of Peoples only includes cultures which are mentioned or implied by JRRT - not cultures which were created by MERP, New Line (e.g. the Abrelinds), or LOTRO. Perhaps the words "Tolkienian core" would be a fitting synonym.

Not that those conceptions of Middle-earth are bad - I just want to make clear what is the Tolkien core. Any Middle-earth RPG has to elaborate its own parallel version of Middle-earth. Actually, each GM creates their own version of Middle-earth too, even if the GM sticks closely to what is presented in the books. Yet since the Tolkien Enterprises license doesn’t include the earlier material, it would have to be referred to obliquely if C7 wishes to tap that lost lore.

It seems like you might be including some elements from the Book of Lost Tales. The Book of Lost Tales is not set in Middle Earth.

Dude, I know all about the three stages of Tolkien's legendarium (Nascent = 1910s-1930, Intermediate = 1930 to 1950, and Mature = 1950s to 1974), and how JRRT didn't manage to update all of the earlier material to seamlessly match the Mature Legendarium before he died. Though he aimed to, and tried. Yet obviously, the Nascent and Intermediate stuff is "Middle-earth" - it's just not fully harmonized with the published LotR. I mean, just looking at the chapter titles of The Book of Lost Tales (vol 1 and 2) they are obviously relevant:

1. The Cottage of Lost Play" — the "framework" story
2. "The Music of the Ainur" — the first version of what would become the Ainulindalë
3. "The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor" — later Valaquenta and first chapters of Quenta Silmarillion
4. "The Chaining of Melko" — Melko is an earlier name of Melkor
5. "The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr" — Kôr is the later Tirion and its hill Túna
6. "The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor"
7. "The Flight of the Noldoli" — "Noldoli" are the Elves later called Noldor
8. "The Tale of the Sun and Moon"
9. "The Hiding of Valinor"
10. "Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind"
Contents of Book 2
1. "The Tale of Tinúviel" — first version of the tale of Beren and Lúthien
2. "Turambar and the Foalókë" — first version of the Túrin saga
3. "The Fall of Gondolin" — the only full narrative of the Fall of Gondolin
4. "The Nauglafring" — a story which was "lost", in that it never was rewritten in full, and was mostly left out of the later Silmarillion.
5. "The Tale of Eärendel" — the only full narrative of Eärendil's travels
6. "The History of Eriol or Ælfwine and the End of the Tales"

The Mature Legendarium is also a Mythology for England...and now the whole wide world.

 

[aramis erak]

I agree that Middle Earth is a bad fit for D&D in general for all the obvious reasons. But I'm curious why you say "5e pretty specifically". How is 5e a worse fit than, say, 4e?

Worse than others? I didn't say that.

5E, however, up-powers characters VERY quickly; Middle Earth shows fairly middling start and very little growth over time.

5E shows lots of flashy but very short lived magics, and magic is a technology. Middle Earth has magic galore... but it's subtle, long term, and often corrupting and/or unreliable

I think it'll (potentially) be great (love TOR), but it'll definitely need distinct classes, possibly a lower level-cap, subtle magic (and healing) and NO Raise Dead or Ressurection. Death is a big deal in Middle Earth.

6th level feels about right for the level cap...

 

[Guest 6801328]

All (or just about all) of the concerns about OP magic can be addressed by creating replacement spell lists. You'd then have to give casters some improved martial abilities to compensate, of course. But that feels thematically appropriate.

Not sure what I think about the leveling up; not just the speed of it but also the power differential. Feels a bit First Age, if you know what I mean.

 

[Maxperson]

Worse than others? I didn't say that.

5E, however, up-powers characters VERY quickly; Middle Earth shows fairly middling start and very little growth over time.

I disagree. It starts with amazingly powerful personages in the first age and each successive age is less powerful. There's no growth, only diminishment.

 

[aramis erak]

I agree that Middle Earth is a bad fit for D&D in general for all the obvious reasons. But I'm curious why you say "5e pretty specifically". How is 5e a worse fit than, say, 4e?

I disagree. It starts with amazingly powerful personages in the first age and each successive age is less powerful. There's no growth, only diminishment.

Given that we know who their license is from (Middle-Earth Entertainment, formerly known as the Saul Zaentz Company), the setting is forcibly constrained to the end of the 3rd age.

For all intents and purposes, nothing that Christopher Tolkien has rights to exists in the materials that C7 have rights to use. If it's not in the Hobbit Novel, and not in the LotR novels, it's not available to them, and is thus utterly irrelevant. In Other Words, it's not the First Age RPG... because they cannot legally pull that off.

And We do see character competence growth in LotR and in The Hobbit. Only by hobbits and Istari, but we do see it in Bilbo, Merry, Pip, and Sam. We see personal growth in Aragorn and Frodo, even as Frodo fades in power and competence. In D&D terms, Merry, Pip, and Sam clearly level up.

 

[Maxperson]

Given that we know who their license is from (Middle-Earth Entertainment, formerly known as the Saul Zaentz Company), the setting is forcibly constrained to the end of the 3rd age.

For all intents and purposes, nothing that Christopher Tolkien has rights to exists in the materials that C7 have rights to use. If it's not in the Hobbit Novel, and not in the LotR novels, it's not available to them, and is thus utterly irrelevant. In Other Words, it's not the First Age RPG... because they cannot legally pull that off.

And We do see character competence growth in LotR and in The Hobbit. Only by hobbits and Istari, but we do see it in Bilbo, Merry, Pip, and Sam. We see personal growth in Aragorn and Frodo, even as Frodo fades in power and competence. In D&D terms, Merry, Pip, and Sam clearly level up.

Where is that license? I'd like to look at it.

 

[shadowdemon]

Perhaps like The One Ring supplements,the D&D series of books will follow the same style.
The supplements for The One Ring focused a lot on the setting and containing minimal mechanics.( at least from what i have seen/read).
I'm guessing we'll see plenty of setting material,with possibly new sub-races and new archetypes. (example: Halfling sub-race: Hobbits of the shire. ect)
Anyways,if not for actually running Middle Earth with D&D 5e rules,the reading alone will be superb as is in The One Ring.
And if there are to be mechanics therein,it will probably lean towards travel and the effects when the Shadow takes hold,The Eye of Sauron, ect.
Should be good.