D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

Hussar

Legend
On the topic of genre emulation:

In a heist movie/story, we do have a planning scene. That's all part of the build up to the heist. Perfectly fine.

What don't we have in a heist movie/story? The protagonists' plan fails five minutes into the heist because that guard rolled a decent spot check and noticed the invisible fighter clanking past in his armor. While he can't see the fighter, he can certainly hear him, and thus, raises the alarm and the entire plan fails.

It's no different than any type of Plan/Execution scenario. If you are doing an exploration scenario where the players spend an hour getting their expedition ready, hiring NPC's, doing the rounds with sages, buying equipment, etc, you don't drop a tornado on their group, killing the expedition, on the first day. Doing it near the end? Sure. That's cool. Or, even cooler, not doing it at all and actually letting the players succeed.

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Something to pay attention to here as well. There is no need to prove that D&D CAN'T do something. That's virtually impossible to prove. All we have to do is look at the counter arguments in this thread to see that it's entirely possible to do these things in D&D. All that has to be shown is that sometimes, other systems do something better and that advising a D&D DM of the existence of another game that does something better is perfectly acceptable.
 

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What don't we have in a heist movie/story? The protagonists' plan fails five minutes into the heist because that guard rolled a decent spot check and noticed the invisible fighter clanking past in his armor. While he can't see the fighter, he can certainly hear him, and thus, raises the alarm and the entire plan fails.
Yup, seen a lot of this in D&D. In a typical heist story you have a group of highly specialised experts, and everything goes perfectly apart from one tiny insignificant error that causes everything to fall apart at the end. In D&D 5e you have - whatever random group of PCs you happen to have, and lots of skill rolls that have to be made first time or it turns into a straight-up fight.

Now, I don't know of a particular game system that does heists better, so if someone suggested one it would be very helpful.

They talk a bout characters being genre savvy/genre blind, but it is also possible for players to be game system savvy/blind. If they are system savvy and the system is D&D, players will know there is little point in elaborate plans because things will go south very quickly, and "making it up as you go along" is a better strategy.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
Even then, I would potentially move away from words like “better.” I would say that Blades in the Dark has more (or at least tighter) system support than D&D for running criminal scores in an urban environment. Whether that’s better is certainly debatable and up for preferences. But it’s undeniable that BitD has more built-in mechanical support for running crime scores as a central part of play.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Oh, I know of "things go bad" kind of heists movies, but in that case planning makes even less sense.

If we already know that the "perfect plan" isn't supposed to actually work and the exciting stuff is going to be the result of naughty word going south, then what's the point of spending time on formulating a perfect plan?
Because things can't go south until you know where north is.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Or maybe a book. I do think that genre emulation is an important part of our general TTRPG play. I mean, if I wanted to play a game of superheroes, then I’m certainly hoping to emulate one or more superhero media, whether in comic book, film, or televised form. I’m not sure why crime heists would be different.

When I read through BitD, it reminded me A LOT about The Lies of Locke Lamora. A fantasy book of ambitious thieves pulling elaborate scores against the upper crust of a quasi-Venetian city. The story often involves jumping into the action of the scene, only to do a flashback later (generally the next chapter) that reveals the behind-the-scenes planning.

And I was not the only one who noticed the similarity but apparently John Harper had not read Locke Lamora. He only included it as a touchstone after other people mentioned it repeatedly.

I think that these sort of flashbacks are common to the heist genre because it creates tension for the audience while still making the characters feel competent. If we only saw planning and everything go perfectly in the execution, then there is little dramatic tension.
Gentlemen bastards (series name of that book 1) is also great at doing a detailed breakdown into how a thieves guild type thing could function in a d&d type world with magic and such without resorting heavily on plot armor. Some of the books even go pretty deep into how the pc level skills crew was trained for them to be capable of operating on the level they operate on. Simple street rats and pick pockets they are not.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
They talk a bout characters being genre savvy/genre blind, but it is also possible for players to be game system savvy/blind. If they are system savvy and the system is D&D, players will know there is little point in elaborate plans because things will go south very quickly, and "making it up as you go along" is a better strategy.
Hmm, now I think of that, while Blades heavily suggest to not plan anything, aside from Engagement rolls, it has some support for planning that, say, D&D doesn't -- the ability to look the GM in the eye and say "no way" when a complication arises.
 

Because things can't go south until you know where north is.
There speaks someone who's never been lost in the woods.

And the perfect plan is obvious. You get out with the loot without being spotted. Also watch a heist movie or TV show (e.g. Ocean's X, Leverage, Logan Lucky) and at least half the time you'll find that the heist isn't quite what the audience thought it was and why things aren't quite as pear shaped as the audience thought is shown in a flashback scene.
 

Imaro

Legend
I'm gonna bullet point and treat "heist" as being shorthand for any kind of criminal type skullduggery, heist is just one example of a Score, honestly. I'll start out by saying that in 5e D&D, things that are related to skullduggery and theft are mostly left to the Rogue class, with a little carry over to some other classes, and also through use of the Criminal Background. But unless a party is specifically specced out for stealth and deception, there will be weak spots.

- Less niche protection- Blades PCs are all reasonably capable at any and all actions; yes they have areas they are strong at and areas they are not, but at worst, they're still capable- they are also flexible, your playbook choice only determines 3 of your starting 7 stat points and your XP triggers; you can then assign 4 points however you wish among your other stats and you are also free to take abilities from other playbooks freely when you get a new one, you're not limited to your playbook nor do you have to multiclass or anything like that- PCs are more broadly competent and flexible than in D&D

- Stress- every PC has Stress to deploy in order to improve their chances at actions- they can more easily shore up those shortcomings they do have, which again are not as bad as 5E- they can spend stress to increase their dice pool or to increase the effect of their action, giving them tools beyond a simple skill check that will allow them to perform

- Resistance Rolls- these allow the PC to shrug off consequences from any action that imposes a consequence- so if a failed Prowl roll results in a guard being alerted, he has the ability to Resist that consequence

- Group moves and Assists- these allow the entire crew to contribute to an action that would normally be one or two characters' specialty in D&D- so group Prowl moves when the whole crew needs to infiltrate or a group Skirmish move when the crew gets into a brawl, etc. Assists are a simpler way for some teamwork, and can help quite a bit- teamwork is promoted with assists because the cost to assist another PC is 1 Stress but the cost to push your own roll is 2 Stress

- Load and Gear- allowing Gear to be chosen as needed gives that "the right tool for the job" feeling; it makes the character seem like a competent criminal who knows what they'll likely need- I know a lot of people would disagree with this, but no- in D&D, the player is choosing gear, not the character, and the player's information is incomplete and imperfect because it is being relayed through another- who would better plan for a crime, a criminal or a roleplayer? The criminal. This mechanic portrays that.

- Flashbacks- another way to make the character a criminal in a city that they know and are familiar with and were they have contacts and means of finding out information. Flashbacks help the players by allowing the characters to prepare for the challenges they face, again shifting play in a different direction that still takes some skill, but which doesn't rely on the player somehow being as competent a criminal as the character.

- Position and Effect- this promotes a uniform process of play which is open and player facing, and negotiable- this means that players will always know a sense of the odds they have at any given action- that player awareness bleeds over to character awareness, again portraying the scoundrels as competent

- XP For Desperate Actions- this is a great one, and it epitomizes what some of the others also do- it encourages bold and daring play- scoundrels of the type in Blades are meant to be bold and daring, taking on threats that they shouldn't be, and somehow scraping by- giving XP for putting themselves in danger is quite the opposite of what many D&D games are, which is about mitigating risk

- Success With Consequences- this is another important one as it's what allows a Gm to turn just about any Action taken by a player into a dynamic situation that mounts as you play- D&D really lacks in this area- I know that this is a suggestion in the DMG, but I don't think many GMs use it to great effect, and the way the D&D fanbase shot down the Skill Challenges of 4E, I'm surprised to see such support for it in this conversation- It's much more uniformly, fundamentally, and smoothly deployed in Blades

- Action Rolls- they all work the same; want to stab the guard? Want to sneak past him? Want to trick him into letting you past? All these things function in the same way- all can become dynamic and interesting situations that potentially include all the other rules of the game- this makes non-combat actions as viable as fighting- I'm sure we've all seen the slow but inevitable resort to combat in D&D and it's because the skill system is too simple on its own- it's not robust enough to actually support a mechanically engaging encounter and so players decide okay let's get to the fun stuff

There are likely more, but those are the kind of bare bones ones that I think are significant. Didn't even get into playbook abilities and the like; I wanted to stick to elements common to all characters or just fundamental to the game.




The text actively encourages that, yes. Get to the action. Harper makes a specific point to say it's not always necessary, but that it's a general principle to keep in mind. If you do, you'll generally be able to keep the action moving without getting bogged down in lots of discussion.

But there are at least a few basic prep actions in the form of Gathering Information and then the Engagement Roll. You have to pick a Detail, which is a crucial element of the plan (so if you're assaulting a place, the Detail might be "we're rappelling in through the windows" or something similar). So there's always at least a little prep.

But the general idea is to get to the action.



Perhaps. But not every character will have access to those abilities, and even those who do may not select those abilities. They'll likely need to consider it against other needs.

The truth of the matter is that the biggest pressure on the PCs in D&D is Hit Point Attrition. That's pretty much it. And Hit Points, as much as they can be described to be any one thing, are a Pacing Mechanic. They are D&D's ticking clock for the PCs.

And there are very few ways for PCs to lose HP. Combat, the occasional trap, and.....um....more combat!

The game doesn't have any way to really put pressure on the PCs except with HP, and with more narrative goals or penalties. But the narrative goals and penalties are true of every game. So HP are what D&D has to work with. A party with full HP, casting Invisibility and spamming Guidance and similar spells may get in an out to perform a heist or similar job.....and the encounter would suck.

D&D is geared for combat in so many fundamental ways that when there is no combat, the game is almost absent.

Hey just wanted to say thanks @hawkeyefan, I'll post some comments on what you have taken the time to write up a little later (work calls) but I wanted to say thank you for actually writing this up and addressing what I was looking for/asking for from other posters
 
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Imaro

Legend
On the topic of genre emulation:

In a heist movie/story, we do have a planning scene. That's all part of the build up to the heist. Perfectly fine.

What don't we have in a heist movie/story? The protagonists' plan fails five minutes into the heist because that guard rolled a decent spot check and noticed the invisible fighter clanking past in his armor. While he can't see the fighter, he can certainly hear him, and thus, raises the alarm and the entire plan fails.

It's no different than any type of Plan/Execution scenario. If you are doing an exploration scenario where the players spend an hour getting their expedition ready, hiring NPC's, doing the rounds with sages, buying equipment, etc, you don't drop a tornado on their group, killing the expedition, on the first day. Doing it near the end? Sure. That's cool. Or, even cooler, not doing it at all and actually letting the players succeed.

I don't know if I agree here... HEAT (arguably one of the greatest heist movies ever made)... five minutes into the first bank robbery and it all goes to hell (and surprise, surprise becomes a giant bloody battle). I think a very specific type of heist movie/show is being presented by some in this thread as representative of all heist movies and shows in general when it's only one subtype.

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Something to pay attention to here as well. There is no need to prove that D&D CAN'T do something. That's virtually impossible to prove. All we have to do is look at the counter arguments in this thread to see that it's entirely possible to do these things in D&D. All that has to be shown is that sometimes, other systems do something better and that advising a D&D DM of the existence of another game that does something better is perfectly acceptable.

Well if you make the statement that D&D can't do something you kind of do have to prove it. But I don't think the original argument was D&D does heists in a similar manner to Blades or that Blades can't do some things better than D&D when it comes to heists... it's those telling (or inferring) that people can't possibly running a successful heist adventure in D&D that's being disputed.
 

I don't know if I agree here... HEAT (arguably one of the greatest heist movies ever made)... five minutes into the first bank robbery and it all goes to hell (and surprise, surprise becomes a giant bloody battle). I think a very specific type of heist movie/show is being presented by some in this thread for heist movies and shows in general when it's only one subtype.
"Heist" is a very specific genre to those who have studied media. "Features a robbery" is not sufficient. HEAT is not, by media studies definition, a heist movie. The Mission Impossible TV series is a better example of the genre.
 

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