D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

[TheCosmicKid]

I wonder of WotC developers aren't suffering from a bit of "name shock" after having to name zillions of M:tG cards? "...er... Proppernoundian Verbinator..."

Well, different teams, but these dumb compound word names do seem to be endemic in modern fantasy gaming. Magic, Warcraft, you name it*. I'm not sure, but I suspect that like many trends in fantasy not from the literary canon it can be traced back to Warhammer. Somehow it works for Warhammer, though, partially because in its case The Cheese Is The Point, and partially because the GW writers seem to have a nose for better, more evocative cheese.

*And then there's Dota, which is somehow on a level of naming conventions below this one. Lest we make the mistake of thinking we're at the bottom here.

 

[maceochaid]

Absolutely love the 4th Edition fluff, I tried to meticulously catalog an index of everything in the forums, but lost it all when they did that switch over to the new format. It was the saddest day of my life.

Feywild I love as a name because I think it does a really good job of evoking what "Faerie" means according to Tolkien's seminal essay. Weird Magic + World of Adventure, Fey + Wild. Love it.

As a lover of Celtic Mythology I want to tell my characters "you're in Fairyland" and communicate "you're in trouble" instead of "You are going to be dancing with bunnies and eating gumdrops." Feywild does a pretty good job of that.

DnD would do itself a great service if they cribbed from Tolkien's folkloristics rather than from his fantasy world.

 

[Remathilis]

It's a risk you take, yes, and it blew up on them in that instance. It's not what /always/ happens, or no one would ever re-imagine or re-launch anything, ever. Shatner would still be playing Kirk. Marvel wouldn't be making movies.

An interesting take on the 'why' of it. It rings true to my ears, but do you base it on anything beyond intuition?

It clearly wasn't, since there were big chunks of the design that were at odds with the concept. OK, D&D mechanics and assumptions have always been pretty heavily tilted in the other direction. 1e training rules, for just one instance, prettymuch required that there be high-level NPCs out there, in numbers. 4e, like 3e, implied a world (or even universe) with remarkably liquid and well-developed markets for insanely expensive magic items, which was starkly at odds with the PoL concept. Even so, the game was more open to PC-centric storytelling, in general (though, really, turning on inherent bonuses starts to look like a really good idea if you start thinking through the implications of wealth/level & make/buy/sell for magic items).

I think that must overstate it, and would, again, invite you to share any instances of insiders coming out and saying anything along those lines. But, even if that was their vision, they produced a system that could be used to play in a much wider variety of ways. Indeed, as I pointed out, above, there were sub-systems (not just magic items, Paragon Paths and Themes also often pointed to a world with large numbers of high-level adventurers, large/vibrant economies, and secure higher powers - fine for the sort of world that FR was before the spellplague) that strongly nudged the game in different directions.

My memories of the era are now fuzzy, but Worlds & Monsters had a lot of "This is how D&D is" parts of it, and nearly all of them assumed a PoL style world. Ironically, they avoid a large amount of that with Eberron, which seemed a lot less PoL than either Nerath or Post-SP Realms was made.

 

[Aldarc]

My memories of the era are now fuzzy, but Worlds & Monsters had a lot of "This is how D&D is" parts of it, and nearly all of them assumed a PoL style world. Ironically, they avoid a large amount of that with Eberron, which seemed a lot less PoL than either Nerath or Post-SP Realms was made.

After FR was released in 4E, there was a huge uproar on the official forums about protecting any potential update of Eberron, especially on the scale of what was done to FR. I believe the Eberron timeline in 4E was only moved up by a year or so and remained mostly unchanged. I also recall Keith Baker/Hellcow writing in a blog entry or maybe here how Eberron was already a PoL setting. Sure we think of the magnificent floating towers of Sharn, but most places aren't Sharn. Eberron had a few dotted townscapes across a vast wilderness littered with scattered ruins, intrigue, and adventure.

 

[Imaro]

After FR was released in 4E, there was a huge uproar on the official forums about protecting any potential update of Eberron, especially on the scale of what was done to FR. I believe the Eberron timeline in 4E was only moved up by a year or so and remained mostly unchanged. I also recall Keith Baker/Hellcow writing in a blog entry or maybe here how Eberron was already a PoL setting. Sure we think of the magnificent floating towers of Sharn, but most places aren't Sharn. Eberron had a few dotted townscapes across a vast wilderness littered with scattered ruins, intrigue, and adventure.

Weird I always viewed Eberron as the opposite... mostly civilized, relatively safe and cosmopolitan (I mean it has airships and a railroad for long distance travel), with PoD scattered across Khovaire.

 

[Aldarc]

Weird I always viewed Eberron as the opposite... mostly civilized, relatively safe and cosmopolitan (I mean it has airships and a railroad for long distance travel), with PoD scattered across Khovaire.

The aesthetic of Eberron can be deceptive that way. The railroads only connect the most fortunate locations along trade routes - which is now disrupted by the Mournland - and most townships and villages would likely be unable to make regular use of the airships. Wroat, the capital of Breland, is surrounded by forests. There are keeps and forest around the area, but there is not actually much in terms of nearby towns and cities. Even around the metropolitan Sharn, we only have a few forts on the outskirts, a handful of villages, but mostly wilderness. Considering that much of this area, including Sharn, was once under the control of the goblinoid Dhakaani Empire, so there are likely goblin ruins or even ambitious hobgoblins in the wilderness who seeks to make their own Darguun.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

The aesthetic of Eberron can be deceptive that way. The railroads only connect the most fortunate locations along trade routes - which is now disrupted by the Mournland - and most townships and villages would likely be unable to make regular use of the airships. Wroat, the capital of Breland, is surrounded by forests. There are keeps and forest around the area, but there is not actually much in terms of nearby towns and cities. Even around the metropolitan Sharn, we only have a few forts on the outskirts, a handful of villages, but mostly wilderness. Considering that much of this area, including Sharn, was once under the control of the goblinoid Dhakaani Empire, so there are likely goblin ruins or even ambitious hobgoblins in the wilderness who seeks to make their own Darguun.

Wait, Eberron isn't the post-WWI fantasy, but the post-Civil War wild, wild west fantasy (kind of like the TV show with the same name)? I never thought of it that way, but that is actually quite interesting. And it means the gun toting artificer actually totally fits.

Ah well, if they ever make a 5e Eberron handbook, I am sure they will make it a post-WWII cold war fantasy (and before anyone complains that would totally fit the cosmology, Savarath returns!)...

 

[Aldarc]

Wait, Eberron isn't the post-WWI fantasy, but the post-Civil War wild, wild west fantasy (kind of like the TV show with the same name)? I never thought of it that way, but that is actually quite interesting. And it means the gun toting artificer actually totally fits.

I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. But whatever. It fits if you ignore what Keith Baker has said about guns in Eberron.

Ah well, if they ever make a 5e Eberron handbook, I am sure they will make it a post-WWII cold war fantasy (and before anyone complains that would totally fit the cosmology, Savarath returns!)...

Eberron is already amidst a cold war. That's kinda one of the biggest metaplots of the setting across two editions.

 

[TwoSix]

The aesthetic of Eberron can be deceptive that way. The railroads only connect the most fortunate locations along trade routes - which is now disrupted by the Mournland - and most townships and villages would likely be unable to make regular use of the airships. Wroat, the capital of Breland, is surrounded by forests. There are keeps and forest around the area, but there is not actually much in terms of nearby towns and cities. Even around the metropolitan Sharn, we only have a few forts on the outskirts, a handful of villages, but mostly wilderness. Considering that much of this area, including Sharn, was once under the control of the goblinoid Dhakaani Empire, so there are likely goblin ruins or even ambitious hobgoblins in the wilderness who seeks to make their own Darguun.

I do understand that's the aesthetic Keith has explained, but I've never run Eberron that way. I prefer it bustling and cosmopolitan, at least in the areas that seem more civilized. I increase the population listed in the 3e setting book by a factor of 50 to represent Eberron the way I like. The population is clustered on the Dagger River Sharn-Wroat axis, and the areas surrounding Scions Sound. There's plenty of civilized but sparsely populated areas in east Breland, east and north Karrnath, and western Aundair near the Eldeen border.

 

[Aldarc]

I do understand that's the aesthetic Keith has explained, but I've never run Eberron that way. I prefer it bustling and cosmopolitan, at least in the areas that seem more civilized. I increase the population listed in the 3e setting book by a factor of 50 to represent Eberron the way I like. The population is clustered on the Dagger River Sharn-Wroat axis, and the areas surrounding Scions Sound. There's plenty of civilized but sparsely populated areas in east Breland, east and north Karrnath, and western Aundair near the Eldeen border.

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.