D&D is not a supers game.

OK, so I've got the play test, read it and played it. I actually like much of it, including the Backgrounds and Themes ideas. It generally feels like D&D (as an 'old school gamer') although it still needs expanding on some ideas.

The big bugbear for me, however, largely boils down to to same core issue I have with D&D 4th edition (and Pathfinder actually). And that is the power creep.

Why do Hit Points have to be so high at 1st level - out of synch with all other NPC dwellers? Why do Fighters need to have a D12 Hit Dice, and cause unstoppable damage at 1st level? Why do Wizards need an inexhaustible supply of unerring Magic Missiles to launch? Why do classes all need a schtick-like effects to be enjoyable to play in the 1st level?

Seriously, if your group wants to play a higher level style fantasy, what is stopping them simply giving all PCs 10,000 XP to start with and simply begin play at a higher level?

For me half the fun of D&D is starting off as relatively ordinary characters, and then becoming heroic as they gain experience. This seems to be lost in practically all modern iterations of D&D. I recall the 1st time I played D&D, being wowed by the experience of our party overcoming an Ogre with something like 30HP at the climax of the session. You lose that sense of danger, if the individual characters have nearly that much HP each already. You cannot play a Lord of the Rings style Hobbity adventure with these rules, which is a clear failure in my book.

So, for me:

1) Make the HD the sole measure of HP (with a Con modifier for each level). Have characters gain up to 10HD at 10th Level, then simply stop awarding them after that.

2) Give Fighters a d10 HD again. Actually, I'd arguably give them a D8, so that the HP are equitable with other characters and NPC Warriors). Levy their 'Feats' so that, at 1st level at least, combat is challenging. They can gain more dramatic feats as they progress, but it needs to be levied.

3) Make Wizards 'minor spells' actually minor in effect. Anything that directly causes damage, without needing to roll, is not a minor effect. Cantrips should be effects that gain useful little benefits, like opening doors or moving small objects around, but are not flashy evocations of power.

4) Make the skills the main focus of the Rogue Class - not just the 'striker' role (although, admittedly, this is much better in D&D Next than it was in 4th Ed). I'm not asking for big long lists (definitely not!), but what about being able to pickpocket again?

5) Be wary of escalating bonuses. Already, at 1st level the Fighter seems to have massive bonuses on damage and attacks - indeed, almost all the characters have bonuses of some type, and it's hard to track where some of them are coming from. Also, incidentally, are they going to go back to adding 1/2 Level to Skill checks and Attacks? It is not clear in the play test, although I actually wouldn't mind as it's an easy method of calculating.

Spot on!

I want a game where "I" earn my heroic status, not one that's given to me at the start.

I think a few people have mentioned making 1st level PC's strong because it will attract players. I think that's BS and I don't want a game like that.

Here is an example of this: I new a Taekwon-Do school that used to give black belts to smaller kids, who didn't earn them, in order to keep them in the school. I think a black belt should be earned, not given to keep kids interested.
 

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The complexity of character creation created this need/desire to make character survivability a requirement. If you could knock out a character in 5-10 minutes without an online tool we would not be having this sort of conversation.

Character survivability was a need/desire AND A REALITY for plenty of groups playing 1e and 2e. This idea that every group played charnel house D&D in the 80s is not accurate.
 

I want a game where "I" earn my heroic status, not one that's given to me at the start.

This is a distinction without a difference. If you start at Power Level X and later reach Power Level Z, then you've earned Power Level Z.

You might as well ask, "Why do 1st level character start out already knowing how to use weapons or cast spells?"

You're not making a broad argument about "earning" power. You're making a targeted argument about how MUCH power they should have to begin with.
 

I want a game where "I" earn my heroic status, not one that's given to me at the start.

Being able to do cool things does not mean that you have any kind of heroic "status". You still have to earn your notoriety. Why are you trying to conflate the two?

I think a few people have mentioned making 1st level PC's strong because it will attract players. I think that's BS and I don't want a game like that.

It won't attract players. What it will do is help retain them. And, given that you're not a new player, your opinion on the value of parts of the game designed to support new players is going to be limited in its worth.

Here is an example of this: I new a Taekwon-Do school that used to give black belts to smaller kids, who didn't earn them, in order to keep them in the school. I think a black belt should be earned, not given to keep kids interested.

Why do you care? In what possible way does little kids being given black belts to build their self-esteem and keep them invested in an activity that fosters discipline and physical fitness affect you in a negative way?
 

This is a distinction without a difference. If you start at Power Level X and later reach Power Level Z, then you've earned Power Level Z.

You might as well ask, "Why do 1st level character start out already knowing how to use weapons or cast spells?"

You're not making a broad argument about "earning" power. You're making a targeted argument about how MUCH power they should have to begin with.

And it's arbitrarily-targeted, to boot.
 

And it's arbitrarily-targeted, to boot.

It's also conflating Characters and Players. I am a fat nerd sitting at a table rolling dice and eating Cheesy-Poofs. Bruno the Warrior is an imaginary character being put into motion by said overweight nerd - his choices driven for the sake of entertainment and constrained by all manner of meta-level concerns and mechanics. Bruno is an imaginary engine to pretend at heroism. At best he's the Lone Ranger a character in a story. He doesn't really earn anything - it's a contrivance. I'm a gamer rolling dice - I certainly didn't earn any status on my end either.

Now, Audie Murphy was a hero. He earned his heroic status like you read about. Griping over how anybody "earned" heroic status in Dungeons and Dragons when men like that walked the earth is just ridiculous.

Simulating an arc of dirt-grubbing peasant to competent warrior in our little game of imaginary men and plastic polyhedrons is all well and good. It's for amusement purposes only, after all.

- Marty Lund
 

Turn that question around on yourself and see if you can come up with an answer.

The solution is to make the kicker a option and not a default, tweak some of the at-will powers and call it done.

Turn that question back on yourself.

Make not having the kicker an option, leave the at-wills alone, and then provide options for people who want to play differently than the core assumptions.

Neither way is correct, but I dislike when people assume what they want is both the correct thing and the most popular.
 

This is a distinction without a difference. If you start at Power Level X and later reach Power Level Z, then you've earned Power Level Z.

You might as well ask, "Why do 1st level character start out already knowing how to use weapons or cast spells?"

You're not making a broad argument about "earning" power. You're making a targeted argument about how MUCH power they should have to begin with.
Outstanding point. Well reasoned. Good show and all that.
 

I think the problem with the way D&D was originally set up is a legacy from Wargaming. The PCs are, according to the rules, veterans. But they have the lowest available stats on the scale because they are basically footmen from Chainmail and that's as low as that system ever needed to go.

The problem is, stuff then gets added to the game which chainmail never needed. Wizards get familiars that do stuff, so suddenly you need squirrel stats. And because starting PCs are at the absolute mechanical bottom of the scale, that means there no available rules space for fluffy woodland critters. So they end up being as powerful as those starting veteran PCs.

So either, you end up living with house-cats that can mechanically take on a wizard in a fair fight, or you lift the PCs starting level a bit so there is squirrel space underneath them. Out of these two, I take option b every time.
 

So either, you end up living with house-cats that can mechanically take on a wizard in a fair fight, or you lift the PCs starting level a bit so there is squirrel space underneath them. Out of these two, I take option b every time.
"Needing squirrel space underneath them" is perhaps the most poetic explanation of this I've ever seen.
 

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