D&D is not a supers game.

[B.T.]

Well, I want my character to feel like a hero at level 1.

So what are we going to do now?

Who is right?

I don't see what's wrong with having characters starting the heroism at level three. It's much easier for the DM to say, "We're going to start at a higher level" than it is for the DM to say, "We're going to start with half HP."

 

[Grydan]

I don't see what's wrong with having characters starting the heroism at level three. It's much easier for the DM to say, "We're going to start at a higher level" than it is for the DM to say, "We're going to start with half HP."

It seems to me that saying either thing takes about the same amount of time and effort, which is to say, very little time and effort at all.

 

[Mallus]

Yeah, everybody knows roleplaying isn't important at 1st level!

And neither is enjoyment. 1st level should be a test of the player's tenacity and ability to delay gratification.

Note: I do not actually believe this.

 

[Umbran]

Folks,

We are seeing an increase in the sarcasm and snark in this thread. That makes it a perfect time to remind you that sarcasm and snark generally don't work well as teaching tools. If your goal is to get someone else to see that you have a valid point, sarcasm is *not* a place you want to do, because it will more usually do the exact opposite. Sarcasm and snark tend to polarize arguments and sides, and make nasty argument more likely.

So, please consider leaving the snide stuff at the door. Thanks, all!

 

[Doug McCrae]

And I am sometimes tired of players who invent a great personality and background... for a freakin' 1st level PC!

That style of play has been mainstream from the early 80s onwards.

But if the game has 1st level characters who are very competent, then you cannot play that grim-n-gritty style of RPG at all without risky house rules.

To me, even high lethality, highly gamist old school D&D (the style I'm intending to run next) isn't grim-n-gritty. PCs have their brains sucked out by alien jellyfish-things, or get pulled apart by by giant gears, or dissolved in a vat of acid. They die like characters in a Roger Corman movie. It's a mad, deadly funhouse, but it's not realistic.

 

[Mallus]

To me, even high lethality, highly gamist old school D&D (the style I'm intending to run next) isn't grim-n-gritty.

And, oddly enough, old-school D&D parties aren't necessarily weak, when you broaden your analysis to include things like changes to PC spells and the general quality of the opposition.

I've seen 1st-level AD&D parties that were much stronger than their 3e counterparts, thanks to the cumulative effects of numerous rules changes, ie changes to the Sleep and Charm Person spells, "percentile strength", minimum monster damage, ranger's starting hit points, etc.

 

[Aenghus]

I want the option to be able to play 1st level D&D without it being russian roulette. Others can have 1st level russian roulette if they want.

Having to start at higher level to avoid sudden death syndrome isn't an option, its a restricition that favours only the grittily inclined. Having variable power levels for PCs to cater to different preferences at and past 1st level is properly providing options.

 

[Herschel]

Why do Hit Points have to be so high at 1st level - out of synch with all other NPC dwellers?

Because if they were just like the other NPC dwellers, they'd BE just NPC dwellers. This has always been the case. PCs are special, they're heroes. As E.G.G. wrote in the first AD&D PHB, characters are expected to start with at least a 15 stat, probably more than one. 15 was the attribute point for truly exceptional, with 9-11 being average and 12-14 being a cut above to gifted and 18 being awe-inspiring.

There's been some power creep, but not as drastic as you are purporting.

 

[Celestian]

Because I am tired of inventing an great personality and background for a PC only for him or her to be slain by a goblin or rat.

Character background is what happens between levels one and six.
-- Gary Gygax

Why should we who disagree with you lose out on levels of gameplay because you want less HP?

Turn that question around on yourself and see if you can come up with an answer.

The solution is to make the kicker a option and not a default, tweak some of the at-will powers and call it done.

That style of play has been mainstream from the early 80s onwards.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. It wasn't "mainstream" till 3e came out which was well after the 80s.

The complexity of character creation created this need/desire to make character survivability a requirement. If you could knock out a character in 5-10 minutes without an online tool we would not be having this sort of conversation.

 

[Minigiant]

Character background is what happens between levels one and six.
-- Gary Gygax

So D&D is really only 4 levels. From level 6 when you stop being a no name smuck to level 10 when the game breaks down and you are encouraged to retire.